Charger Forums banner

1 - 20 of 28 Posts

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Outside the Charger Forums we also work with customers that have very high performance engines.

Racing fuels are generally used in these big block engines. However, due to the price of fuel they require ($9.00 per gallon +) to run them, people have been looking for ways to continue to enjoy these high performance engines (in cars and boats) but without the high cost of the fuels needed to run them..

Word of mouth and the internet have brought a lot of these people to us to inquire about ACES IV. In the last year we have picked up over 1500 customers who have now abandoned the use of racing fuels and are now using pump fuels and ACES IV. One of our customers said it best:

“I am tired of financing my weekends!” and “ I am also tired of dumping half my paycheck into the gas tank!”

So, last Friday, one of them was working with a Chevy 598 V8. He has traditionally used racing fuel in this engine. He made an appointment with the dyno shop running a Super Flow SF902 dyno.
http://www.superflow.com/Dynamometers/Engine/sf902.html

The guys there favor racing fuel and feel that these fuels are the best as producing power and torque. When my customer brought them the engine, he wanted to baseline on 110 octane fuel and then wanted to test 91 octane fuel by itself, and then ACES IV in 91 octane fuel to have a full comparison between them.

The guys at the dyno saw the ACES IV and laughed at 1 oz per 6 gallons in 91 as having any chance of doing anything in the 598 compared to the 110.

What happened there created all kinds of questions as to what else we do including nitrous, alcohols (ethyl and methyl) as well as nitromethane and E85.

I was given copies of the dyno runs with 110, 91 and 91 with ACES IV for comparisons. I have authorization from the customer to share the results. I thought it would be good to post them here for review.

Here is the 598 on 110 race fuel. It produced Max 805 hp, 769.2 torque at a 13.5 A/F Ratio



Here is the 598 on 91 octane pump fuel. It produced Max 798.6 hp, 760.9 torque at a 14.6 A/F Ratio



Here is the 598 on 91 octane pump fuel + ACES IV. It produced Max 807.1 hp, 776.3 torque at a 14.7 A/F Ratio



The Racing Fuel is $9.00 per gallon. The 91 was $3.80 per gallon and adding ACES IV made the total price $4.152 per gallon. The ACES IV produced 2.2 hp and 7.1 torque MORE than the racing fuel! It also produced 8.5 more hp and 15.4 torque MORE than the 91 octane alone!

So using 91 and ACES IV in this case would produce more power, more torque and save $4.848 per gallon doing it (53.9% less than racing fuel).

Entitled to your own opinions but not entitled to your own facts!

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,082 Posts
Damn this awesome info(spectacular and probably mind blowing to those guys at the shop) made me miss this pale redhead i was checking out, yum!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,925 Posts
How about some more information that would apply, like both dynamic and static compression. Lower octane making more power is nothing new if the compression isn't there to support race fuel.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
17,444 Posts
How about some more information that would apply, like both dynamic and static compression. Lower octane making more power is nothing new if the compression isn't there to support race fuel.
But the 110 octane made more power than the straight 91 octane did.

It was only when Aces was added that the lower octane produced more power than the 110 octane did.

That's much different than the engine not being able to support the higher octane. If it couldn't, the 110 octane wouldn't have made more power than the straight 91 octane did. It also wouldn't explain how the Aces added that much additional power over the straight 91 octane.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,925 Posts
There's a long way between 91 oct and 110. Also what 110 was it ? Leaded , unleaded , oxygenated? Justcause Iit made less power on pump doesn't disprove my statement. Aftermarket additives such as Torco will raise 91 octane to 100 when mixed right.Also just to clsrify.....we are talking less than 10 hp between the lowest pull on 91 and the highest on aces. If you can only gain 10 hp on fuel you don't need race gas.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
There's a long way between 91 oct and 110. Also what 110 was it ? Leaded , unleaded , oxygenated? Justcause Iit made less power on pump doesn't disprove my statement. Aftermarket additives such as Torco will raise 91 octane to 100 when mixed right.Also just to clsrify.....we are talking less than 10 hp between the lowest pull on 91 and the highest on aces. If you can only gain 10 hp on fuel you don't need race gas.
I will find out the static and dynamic compression on the engine from him and also what 110 it was as a baseline.

But SERIOUSLY......Torco does NOT raise octane 9 full octane points. Only tetraethyl or tetramethyl lead can do that! Torco may raise it 1 full octane point with the Manganese. ACES IV doesn't raise octane in that fashion either!

It is how it functions at peak heat release that makes the difference WHILE lubricating the cylinders and allowing for reduced friction and wear.

People on this forum search for 10 hp and 8 ft lbs of torque and spend a lot more than what ACES IV costs per gallon.

Give some credit where it is due. Just because you don't like us shouldn't get you so upset. Hey, we offered to have you come and prove it to yourself a few years ago when Cherry invited you to Big Shot Dyno in Tallmadge and bring your car and you refused to do so!

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,925 Posts
Actually yes Torco will raise octane that much. 32oz into 5 gallons gas is the mix.....ah crap you were right....it doesn't raise it 9, it raises it 14.
http://torcoracefuel.net/2-docs/accelerator-blend-chart.pdf

And Brian contrary to what you might believe I have tried your stuff. When you were giving it away like water at the 2009 LX&B at Quaker City. It did absolutely nothing and I actually saw a decrease in mileage.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,698 Posts
Brian,

With all due respect, A IV isn't going to lubricate cylinders. And even if you could come up with the physics to suggest it does, magical anti frictional compound isn't going to account for anything measurable. 10 HP is nothing. Outside air temp and barometric pressure could account for that much change, just by themselves.

Hemi31 is absolutely correct, racing fuel should have resulted in a much much larger HP change over 91 octane.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Actually yes Torco will raise octane that much. 32oz into 5 gallons gas is the mix.....ah crap you were right....it doesn't raise it 9, it raises it 14.
http://torcoracefuel.net/2-docs/accelerator-blend-chart.pdf

And Brian contrary to what you might believe I have tried your stuff. When you were giving it away like water at the 2009 LX&B at Quaker City. It did absolutely nothing and I actually saw a decrease in mileage.
MMT is the additive in these off the shelf boosters. MMT (Methyl cyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl) is a metal that doesn't burn but plate in the cylinders leaving your plugs impossible to read and also leaves the residue to polish your cylinders. You would get the same effect on your cylinders by pouring jewlers rouge in the intake!

But for the sake of discussion, lets just assume it does do what you say.
As many chemists know, these products have a diminishing effect on higher-octane fuels. Adding the same product to 87-octane pump gas will produce a lot more gain than adding a bottle to 91-octane premium.

Too much of MMT will also damage emissions-control hardware, including spark plugs, injectors, up stream and down stream oxygen sensors and converters. This is why off-the-shelf additives have an emissions component safe formula and an off-road formula due to the concentration of MMT. Anyone who uses these additives really have is no point in using them in 87octane gas. The street version octane booster from your local parts store is a waste of time.

Now, using your example of 32 oz in 5 gallons to get 105 octane fuel with pump gas it is $20.95. $20.95 div by 5 = $4.19 per gallon. So 1 tank of Torco that damages the every day car would cost you an extra $80.45 to get 105 octane!!!

Wow and ACES IV did it for $6.76 PER TANK!!! So your Torco would treat one tank and the same price for the Torco would treat 11.9 tanks of gasoline using ACES IV!! So putting it another way, 192 gallons of ACES treated fuel is $67.60. 192 gallons of Torco treated fuel is $804.48. 1 gallon of ACES IV treats 770 gallons for $234.00 770 gallons of torco would be $3226.30. Anyone can see my point here!

The 598 by the way was 11.1 to 1 and the 110 was VP-110 leaded not oxygenated. So it did have the compression ratio to translate the race fuel and the street fuel.

As far as you using ACES IV, 1 eight oz bottle would start to clean your fuel system and your engine! If you are running the fuel trim fatter and you add ACES IV to it, it won't appear to do anything and actually hamper your economy both from being too rich and also from dropping carbon deposits into the mixture as well. We all know extra carbon hampers combustion.

We offered you an opportunity to openly bring your tuner and put your car on the dyno, add ACES IV and the dyno would prove it or disprove it with a 3rd party dynojet operator to be the referee.......FOR FREE! Again, you refused!:confused:

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,082 Posts
And he lives so close, id understand halfway cross country but same area?
Tough crowd
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
Brian,

With all due respect, A IV isn't going to lubricate cylinders. And even if you could come up with the physics to suggest it does, magical anti frictional compound isn't going to account for anything measurable. 10 HP is nothing. Outside air temp and barometric pressure could account for that much change, just by themselves.

Hemi31 is absolutely correct, racing fuel should have resulted in a much much larger HP change over 91 octane.
Maybe you missed David Vizards 250 hour back to back tests on 2 engines....1 with 91 octane fuel and 1 with 91 octane fuel and ACES IV:





"I did some 250 hours of A-to-B tests on this additive about 15 years ago for an EPA report and found that in a worst-case scenario for the test engines concerned, ring and bore wear was axed by no less than 600 percent!
............. this additive.........ACES must be mixed in very low concentrations with the fuel. When the combustion cycle takes place, the additive burns into a high-grade synthetic lube that coats the cylinder walls from the topside down with a lube layer just a few molecules thick."

"Remember, on the way down, the rings scrape much of the oil off the bores. The lube component is spread thinly on the bores with this additive, so on the way up, pistons and rings should not, even touch the bores.

Over the years I have found this additive to he really effective at prolonging the life of rings and bores. Given a top-notch air filter, 2,000 racing miles result in near-zero wear on rings and bore"

It does do this!

I can't speak to the dyno HP other than it is what it is. 91 octane fuel with .35 over the price of pump gas in an 11.1 to 1 engine producing more power than $9.00 a gallon VP-110 is a good deal in anyones book!

A good scientist and evaluator doesn't argue with the data if it is good cogent data.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,925 Posts
The 598 by the way was 11.1 to 1 and the 110 was VP-110 leaded not oxygenated. So it did have the compression ratio to translate the race fuel and the street fuel.


We offered you an opportunity to openly bring your tuner and put your car on the dyno, add ACES IV and the dyno would prove it or disprove it with a 3rd party dynojet operator to be the referee.......FOR FREE! Again, you refused!:confused:

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
You offered when I was 700 miles away.....of course I turned you down....lol.

As far as the compression ratio 11:1 is not worthy of 110 leaded race fuel. And you still haven't stated dynamic. With enough overlap the motor could run on 87. At 11:1 if the motor needed race fuel there should have been at least 50hp difference between race fuel and 91 oct. All I asked for were some supporting facts. Obviously you view that the same as bashing.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
So would the lube be the Paraffin wax or the hydrocarbon wax?
http://enviroaces.com/pdf/gasoline_catalyst_MSD.pdf
Congratulations, you found the formula that we do for oil drilling trucks and pipeline gasoline vehicles in the arctic and really cold temps. That is not what we make for the domestic market. What you found is for really really cold temps -60 deg C and below!

The domestic you are looking for is this:



This is the one that was dyno'd not the one you found for Canada!

Cherry would have made time for you as he told you. We would have worked around your schedule. After all, we did it for 6 months of 2011! I am sure you could have found some time in that time frame anyway!

It comes down to this. Racing fuel performance with pump gas at that little amount extra for ACES IV is still impressive. What is also impressive is that once people start using ACES IV in their cars, they return to buy multiple quarts and gallons 98% of the time!:beerchug:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,859 Posts
I would LOVE to put your additive in a supercharged car that LOVES C16/E98 way more then 93 pump.


But if you send some out I would run the cold pass with your mix and then back it up on a HOT PD blower car with 110/C16/E98 if you think your additive can stack up to ANY of the above I would be very, very, very impressed.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
I would LOVE to put your additive in a supercharged car that LOVES C16/E98 way more then 93 pump.


But if you send some out I would run the cold pass with your mix and then back it up on a HOT PD blower car with 110/C16/E98 if you think your additive can stack up to ANY of the above I would be very, very, very impressed.
The 93 would have to be Shell and after May 5th. The E98 would be a different product than what you would use for the 93. E98 would need ACES IV-A and at somewhere between .5 oz per gallon and 2.3 oz per gallon. ACES IV would be at either 1 oz per 6 or 1 oz per 5 for lubricity using the blower. ;)

Give me a call and we can talk about it Trev!:bigthumb:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
10 Posts
Brian,

With all due respect, A IV isn't going to lubricate cylinders.
It does in my car-trucks. It turns into a lubricant in high heat. I was porting my srt manifold, took it several times, the color in the ports never changed. I started using aces IV and the next time I removed the manifold I noticed a difference. Starting several inches at the end of the intake ports and continuing to the port in the head all the way to the intake valve it looked like it had a small amount of lubricate coating. I guarantee if you pull your manifold, check the runners and ports then start using aces IV you will see what I have stated.

The biggest advantage in using aces IV is what it does in my service trucks. I pass smog test easier, I "DO" get better mileage and using a camera (in the spark plug holes my pistons have been cleaned. I would waste my money on this if I did not prove it to myself.........

I drive 200 to 250 miles a day. I add one once to 6-7 gallons each Time I add gas. I track all my trucks data. It has made a positive difference.

In my 2010 srt8 challenger I use his oil, Aces IV, The engine is noticeable quieter (valve train), using my predator I can add more timing when using Aces IV. My data log where more uniform than before. The highest data log with Aces IV was 428 HP, with out was 422 HP. I believe it burned the gas more completely.

My 2 cents. :bigthumb:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
The only thing that truly stands out to me is the AF ratios!!!

13.6:1 on the VP-110
14.6:1 on 91 pump
14.7:1 on 91 + Aces-IV

I can see the 110 running 13's, but the pump fuels running an additional point leaner?
I am hoping this is a typo, cause if they were lower by a point, it would make much more sense.

But, with 11:1, and not knowing the dynamic compression, it is feasible that this engine didn't need that much octane. I would have expected more delta hp increase from 91 to 110 if it was truly octane limited.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
10,301 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
The only thing that truly stands out to me is the AF ratios!!!

13.6:1 on the VP-110
14.6:1 on 91 pump
14.7:1 on 91 + Aces-IV

I can see the 110 running 13's, but the pump fuels running an additional point leaner?
I am hoping this is a typo, cause if they were lower by a point, it would make much more sense.

But, with 11:1, and not knowing the dynamic compression, it is feasible that this engine didn't need that much octane. I would have expected more delta hp increase from 91 to 110 if it was truly octane limited.
The difference is that with 91 octane fuel and ethanol, you have a danger of leaning to damage.

With the ACES IV in the fuel the plentiful lubricity created by the reaction of heat protects the engine. Also I would look at the averages on the A/F not max or peak.

12.8 with the 110
14.2 with the 91 pump
13.5 with the 91 pump + ACES IV.

The fact that the pump fuel made MORE power than the race fuel using a fuel that is almost $6.00 a gallon less from a.....driving on the street.....point of view....very appealing for high horsepower engines! $4.15 per gallon vs. $10.00!:beerchug:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Top