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So..................... Blackstone Labs missed the excessive fuel in the oil eh? Hmmmm?
 

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As I said, it would not show up as a bunch of fuel in the oil sample because the injectors weren't leaking/dumping liquid fuel. They were spraying excessive fuel that was not converted correctly in the combustion chamber because the fuel trim was too fat. (Like 5 times more Hersheys Syrup in your chocolate milk vs. drinking from the bottle directly. Too thick and too rich but not dumping) You are mistaking fuel wash down from leaking excessive fuel vs. fat fuel trim that the engine tried to translate and ended up causing the results in these pictures.

The most efficient burn produces the most power. Dumping excessive fuel into the engine doesn't give you more power it just carbons up your engine and that is what we are seeing here! This is the same thing looking at the tailpipes of your car. If you are running rich, you see a lot of black in the pipe. If you are running lean, you see very little black in the pipe.

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I see, just curious because they work with parts per millions.
 

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In many things they do work in Ppm. In fuel and insolubles they work in %.

EX:



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Blackstone would catch excess fuel. Fuel didn't cause lifter failure. Faulty parts did.

Stainign of metal is on whoever to decided rather they like it or not. I am more in for the parts being faulty no matter what blood is in the beast.
 

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For the last time, excessive fuel wash down will show up on an oil analysis....IE .leaking injectors......However very fat fuel trim WILL NOT show up as fuel on the analysis. It typically CAN show up as insolubles but not always. However, continual over excess carbon into the engine will cause a gritty oil content and can cause failures no matter what oil is put in the engine and this we surmise is what happened. We can see this clearly by the pictures.

Brian
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Mm, maybe I'm confused but doesn't a very fat fuel trim = excessive fuel?

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Dodge replace the old OEM lifters with new ones in 2016/2017 (Recently) because I believe they knew they had a problem and finally tried to fix it. While this current problem has been leaking out bits and pieces of info on how the car was behaving and the modifications to the car, I do not believe anything has caused this other than an engine with 125K+ miles finally giving way to lifter failure as has been reported by numerous forums both manual and automatic Hemi's. To believe an oil can prevent this failure in my opinion is ludicrous. It is going to happen to certain engines, maybe how you drive the car, frequency of oil changes and so forth are to blame in part. However, the lifters have been problematic in the Hemi's prior to the new lifters Dodge now has. There have been a few reports of the new lifters failing on brand new engines. Here is a good read on the cause by Johnson lifters:


Anyone doing a top end or forged bottom should IMO consider the Johnson lifters. May be more expensive but if you run it hard and expect the engine to last it is a good investment. Many of the Hellcat owners put them in when doing mods to increase the power.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Dodge replace the old OEM lifters with new ones in 2016/2017 (Recently) because I believe they knew they had a problem and finally tried to fix it. While this current problem has been leaking out bits and pieces of info on how the car was behaving and the modifications to the car, I do not believe anything has caused this other than an engine with 125K+ miles finally giving way to lifter failure as has been reported by numerous forums both manual and automatic Hemi's. To believe an oil can prevent this failure in my opinion is ludicrous. It is going to happen to certain engines, maybe how you drive the car, frequency of oil changes and so forth are to blame in part. However, the lifters have been problematic in the Hemi's prior to the new lifters Dodge now has. There have been a few reports of the new lifters failing on brand new engines. Here is a good read on the cause by Johnson lifters:


Anyone doing a top end or forged bottom should IMO consider the Johnson lifters. May be more expensive but if you run it hard and expect the engine to last it is a good investment. Many of the Hellcat owners put them in when doing mods to increase the power.
Thanks for the link and great info.


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Mm, maybe I'm confused but doesn't a very fat fuel trim = excessive fuel?

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In a spectral oil analysis, you have fuel indicated as a % of the volume. This is to determine if an injector is bleeding fuel. Then of course you have to do a fuel rail bleed down test to determine which injector(s) have an issue. The computer will not tell you the mechanical part of the injector is bleeding.

The analysis will NOT tell you if you have a fat fuel trim as it is turned from liquid to carbon and circulated in the engine. What typically does indicate a fat fuel trim is the % of insolubles which indicates the amount of excess carbon in the oil BUT not always! When you take the valve covers and timing chain covers over and see what this engine looked like, you can see immediately that it isn't normal or typical of what you would expect an engine to look like. We posted earlier what the top part of a hemi looks like when running typical fuel trims. This is 260,000 miles on ACES IV and QuantumBlue 7.5w23 HP Competition Formula:




The QB oil didn't sludge up it continued to be aqueous but the detergents and dispersants (magnesium) took a good portion of it away but still left residual carbon staining and ultimately got wiped out with the carbon content. There is no other thing that can cause carbon staining like this BUT fuel!

Sludge looks completely different than what Jon posted. Sludge is in this engine:



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Brian
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Dodge replace the old OEM lifters with new ones in 2016/2017 (Recently) because I believe they knew they had a problem and finally tried to fix it. While this current problem has been leaking out bits and pieces of info on how the car was behaving and the modifications to the car, I do not believe anything has caused this other than an engine with 125K+ miles finally giving way to lifter failure as has been reported by numerous forums both manual and automatic Hemi's. To believe an oil can prevent this failure in my opinion is ludicrous. It is going to happen to certain engines, maybe how you drive the car, frequency of oil changes and so forth are to blame in part. However, the lifters have been problematic in the Hemi's prior to the new lifters Dodge now has. There have been a few reports of the new lifters failing on brand new engines. Here is a good read on the cause by Johnson lifters:


Anyone doing a top end or forged bottom should IMO consider the Johnson lifters. May be more expensive but if you run it hard and expect the engine to last it is a good investment. Many of the Hellcat owners put them in when doing mods to increase the power.
I concur with you that you really can't fix a hardware problem with software and the same applies to a poor design. However, we have found in testing that it can and does extend the life of the components.....including lifters longer than normal. However, when you augment a vehicle past it's typical design you naturally shorten the life of the vehicle. Treat it like a racecar and you reap racecar lifespan.

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Discussion Starter #32
Ok car is done, and absolutely love how it turned out. As requested here is the video of the lifter that failed and the cam.

https://youtu.be/o0vZX4oMLKg

I was told I need to run 15w50. They have me running Redline oil but said if I want to switch that’s totally up to me.

Cold start video:


After warming it up... just idling:





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Discussion Starter #34
Back on QB and when comparing to the Redline 15w50 (Ran redline for the first 3k miles then again for another 3k before swapping back to QB) the first thing I noticed was the idle and how the engine seems to run smoother. The normal hemi lifter noise definitely quieted down. I’ll do another oil change at the next 3k with QB and then start sending oil samples to Blackstone again. Thanks again Brian







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Jonathan,

Great to have you back after the new build and glad to see the 15w50 you wanted us to make is doing well for you. Looking forward to the oil analysis info as well.

The Quantum-P that is in the formulate now will really do well for the boundry lubricity issues that these engines have while picking up even more HP.

Thanks for the write up and the pictures! I see you have a great helper with you!

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At least it was an excuse to get some more cubes under the hood.
 
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