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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ordered my 2012 SRT8 in Oct of 2011, got in delivered Dec 15, 2011.

Been running QB and ACES for 127k miles. Swapped from OEM fluids at 500 miles on the odometer. Own a 2012 Dodge Charger SRT8 6.4L. Car has ran like a champ for a very long long time. Was doing oil changes every 6K, 8k, 10k, and lastly every 15k after blackstone labs said I could extend it out each time. After 125K I started hearing a tick that got louder over time. Couldnt stop driving it for 2K miles as it was the only car I had and I couldn’t afford the repair cost yet. Shut the car down and parked it till I could send her off to be worked on. Car sat for just over 6 months before I sent it to Arrington Performance in MI. It’s still in their shop at this very moment. They already built the new 426 long block but after they pulled the engine I asked them to send me some internal pictures as soon as they opened her up. Charles from Arrington sent me the following pictures minus the ones of the QB/Aces containers. Arrington did not say anything bad about the pics, but they did say they have never seen one as black as this with this low of mileage and wanted to know what I was running. I told them QB and they continued to say it looks like the oil worked good, but again stated it was odd to see the metal this black.

Here is what it looks like. Never had anything else added to the car. Always QB, QB filter, and aces fuel treatment.

Car has always been Naturally Aspirated, no nitrous and fuel consistently 91 oct, with a diablo tune. Car also has had a catchcan since mile 500 too. Oil has always been dark/black at every oil change.





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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
One of the last results I had them take after doing a 15k interval and sticking to just 15k. It’s old and the Nickel they are asking about was possibly coming from the block itself, or 2 plated 90* elbows on a catchcan... no clue. Never figured that out.




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Jonathan,

It looks like excessive fuel in the oil that turns to carbon making the internals black like that. Could have been a few bleeding injectors to make it look so black.

Typically we see engines look more like this:

260,000 mile 5.7L Hemi with ACES IV and QuantumBlue - 20 oil changes 4.jpg
260,000 mile 5.7L Hemi with ACES IV and QuantumBlue - 20 oil changes 3.jpg



When we took the 3.8L a part, this is what it looked like:

20170802_160513.jpg
20170802_160556.jpg
20170802_160836.jpg


The 3.6 L Pentastar looked like this at 116,600 miles:

20180919_111715.jpg


Good thing we had diesel quality detergency in the oils to keep it from slugging up.

Double check your tuner and what fuel trim you are using.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
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Discussion Starter #6
Thanks for getting back to me. I’ve reached out via email to Charles Crandall and Matt King at Arrington Performance stating what we’ve gone over on the phone and what you posted here. Awaiting their reply. Also gave them your info if they’ed like to contact you directly. Thanks again for getting back to me so promptly. Originally I tried sending the original post in a message but the forum kept saying it was spam so I was forced to post it here.

Anyways... whatever info I get back I will post here to keep everyone informed.

The cam they will be installing is non VVT according to their site. (ST-3A https://www.shophemi.com/p-2140-arrington-st-3a-camshafts.aspx)

Compression will be 10.3 to 1








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Ordered my 2012 SRT8 in Oct of 2011, got in delivered Dec 15, 2011.

Been running QB and ACES for 127k miles. Swapped from OEM fluids at 500 miles on the odometer. Own a 2012 Dodge Charger SRT8 6.4L. Car has ran like a champ for a very long long time. Was doing oil changes every 6K, 8k, 10k, and lastly every 15k after blackstone labs said I could extend it out each time. After 125K I started hearing a tick that got louder over time. Couldnt stop driving it for 2K miles as it was the only car I had and I couldn’t afford the repair cost yet. Shut the car down and parked it till I could send her off to be worked on. Car sat for just over 6 months before I sent it to Arrington Performance in MI. It’s still in their shop at this very moment. They already built the new 426 long block but after they pulled the engine I asked them to send me some internal pictures as soon as they opened her up. Charles from Arrington sent me the following pictures minus the ones of the QB/Aces containers. Arrington did not say anything bad about the pics, but they did say they have never seen one as black as this with this low of mileage and wanted to know what I was running. I told them QB and they continued to say it looks like the oil worked good, but again stated it was odd to see the metal this black.

Here is what it looks like. Never had anything else added to the car. Always QB, QB filter, and aces fuel treatment.

Car has always been Naturally Aspirated, no nitrous and fuel consistently 91 oct, with a diablo tune. Car also has had a catchcan since mile 500 too. Oil has always been dark/black at every oil change.





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Wait, ticking? With QB oil from start? All this time we've been told it would never happen. Guess that perfect score just went kaput!
Also, Blackstone would have called out any excessive fuel in the oil. So I doubt you had that happening.

You should have them install the Pursuit Oil Cooler on there while it's out and help control those oil temps when having fun.

Also, here is my heads and front of engine with 125K with police use, and Mobil 1. Def looks waaaaaay cleaner.
 

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Wait, ticking? With QB oil from start? All this time we've been told it would never happen. Guess that perfect score just went kaput!

Not in the least! Where do you think that black carbon comes from? Not the oil, not dirt but TOO MUCH FUEL. That does not make it a failure of anything to do with us. Too much fuel will wash down the lubricant and can cause failures. You know this....it is simple 101!

Also, Blackstone would have called out any excessive fuel in the oil. So I doubt you had that happening.

I would tend to blame a possible faulty tuner......not a product failure! I will be talking to the people at Arrington
. I am not saying Jon did anything wrong but there was simply too much fuel!

You should have them install the Pursuit Oil Cooler on there while it's out and help control those oil temps when having fun.

Also, here is my heads and front of engine with 125K with police use, and Mobil 1. Def looks waaaaaay cleaner.
Your Mobil 1 pictures are irrelevant! Look at the 300,000 mile 5.7L of Jed's. That is true of our materials when everything is running properly!

Brian
BND Automotive LLC
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www.bndautomotive.com
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oh my lord that’s looks terrible, it’s as black as a 3 year old bbq grill that never gets cleaned. I think I’ll stick to regular over the counter synthetic oil.
 

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oh my lord that’s looks terrible, it’s as black as a 3 year old bbq grill that never gets cleaned. I think I’ll stick to regular over the counter synthetic oil.
Once again, that is NOT representative of our products! This engine had too much fuel in the oil as I said before. We have a lot of detergents to keep engines clean but not enough for an engine that is tuned really fat! This is the result!

Look at the 300,000 mile hemi I posted! Also the 3.8L with 288,000 miles on it and the 3.6L Pentastar.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

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Well, I do know. Remember my background is combustion fuel dynamics, Tribology - lubricant science and chemistry.

This is an excessive fuel problem and no it doesn't look good. It actually looks worse than it really is as the lubricants still were able to keep the passages clean but dark with carbon wash. Look at the cam area. Black but no buildup at all!

Look, lets be straight....look at the color of crude oil, it is also black.....hydrocarbon wash......this is the same thing!

I would have preferred he use ALS instead of Blackstone as they can and have missed things before that ALS doesn't miss.

I don't like to see this for any of our customers. We reached out to Jon as soon as we saw this. We are working now to discuss the situation with Arrington. We always work with everyone that wants help whether fuel and oil or any other thing dealing with a vehicle.

Regards,

Brian
BND Automtoive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
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Maybe you should half the oil change internals to 7k for your oil
That is why I suggested you look at Jed's OCD. That was 260,000 miles on 20 oil changes. This is an average of 13,000 miles between changes. It is not the oil interval or the oil itself but what was put in the oil.....excessive fuel.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
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www.bndautomotive.com
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What is the failure? LOL
127k miles on the engine, hemi tick, and Arrington did not say anything bad about the engine when torn down. Just being this black is not anything they have seen before. They said it looked like the oil worked well. What are the chances that one engine out of thousands, at 127,000 miles is completely black inside? Lab result normal also except for the nickel. (Bad or not so bad?)

You are going to enjoy the torque from that 426. Not a lot of gains in horsepower but the torque is going to throw you back in the seat.
 

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What is the failure? LOL
127k miles on the engine, hemi tick, and Arrington did not say anything bad about the engine when torn down. Just being this black is not anything they have seen before. They said it looked like the oil worked well. What are the chances that one engine out of thousands, at 127,000 miles is completely black inside? Lab result normal also except for the nickel. (Bad or not so bad?)

You are going to enjoy the torque from that 426. Not a lot of gains in horsepower but the torque is going to throw you back in the seat.

Watch Video, sounds like lifter failure. The thing that has never happened with QB products.
 

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The oil looks burnt, my Honda Civic had 300k miles before I sold it and the valve train was clean light bronze with no sludge using only conventional oil. And thats with stretching the oil change intervals.
 

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Watch Video, sounds like lifter failure. The thing that has never happened with QB products.
To me, hard to tell if that is lifter failure. If Arrington torn down the engine seems to me they would have mentioned lifter failure as the cause of the noise. Heads look like they are off. Not an expert but Arrington I am sure would love to get all the Hemi's for rebuild that had a loud tick.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
To me, hard to tell if that is lifter failure. If Arrington torn down the engine seems to me they would have mentioned lifter failure as the cause of the noise. Heads look like they are off. Not an expert but Arrington I am sure would love to get all the Hemi's for rebuild that had a loud tick.
It is lifter failure. I’m just waiting for the car to be finished and returned to me with documentation and the failed parts before I post more about it. I don’t like to speculate or assume anything and since I’m not talking to the shop guys directly. I don’t want to say anything that may have been slightly lost/changed in pass off over the phone with me.

From what I gather.... The Oil was not the issue. The OEM Lifters failed. The Arrington guys said lubrication looked good everywhere else, it’s just stained black for some reason. They are not oil experts... so if BND says it’s due to running rich then I’d trust that to be what it was. Prior to the lifter failure the car didn’t seem to have any issues with idling or running.

BUT

The check engine light would come on all the time running cutouts open. (Didn’t have that issue with the fuel while living in CA, once I moved to KY/IN the light started coming on quite often around 90k miles so 20k miles running on KY/IN fuel) changed the O2 Sensors before lifter failure because the stealership swore it was bad O2 sensors :/ anyways that didn’t change nothing... they kept coming on and they then blamed it on the cutouts but said i shouldn’t be worried... yeah... I know right... ugh

After listening to everyone I’m assuming the computer could have been having issues due to me running cutouts open all the time and possibly threw off Air fuel some how to cause the running rich... it’s all speculation at this point...

After installing the new 426 it’s still tripping the check engine light and the guys at Arrington also think it’s due to the cutouts so they wanted to fab up some block off plates for the cutouts. They then said it would be sweet to go ahead and install long tubes... so....

Just to make sure this issue won’t happen in the future from that scenario again I’m opting to have them remove the cutouts and install Long Tubes and Green catted midpipes and connect to my 3” Magnaflow cat back system I haven’t been using since I got the cutouts back in 2012 at the same time...

Anyways... that’s where it’s at right now. Just waiting on Charles to get back to me on prices on the Longtubes, midpipes and giving the go ahead.

Sorry for not replying sooner.

I’ll reply again when I either have the car or if I get any further info.



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Thank you Jon,

Your information here is critical in that the cutouts can make the engine think it is in a different place on fuel trim than it is and increase the fuel volume.....increased pulse width.

The engine typically will blow some carbon up between the valve stem and guide area and this is what we have seen in the pictures. It is then washed with the detergents in the oil down to other parts of the engine and that is why we see the carbon staining but not accumulation.

There can be a lot of fuel trim but not wash down like a leaking injector and that is why you would not see excessive "fuel" in the oil sample. It would show up more in the amount of soot in the oil instead. So trying to look for excessive fuel in the oil, you would read it as carbon soot instead which is what we see in the pictures.

Would like to know what the check engine light shows as this can also give us a clue as to what was occurring in the engine at the 90,000 mile + range that you mentioned.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for over 10 years!
 
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