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My Pedders Experience

23272 Views 105 Replies 29 Participants Last post by  metgo, 
metgo
I hate to post bad reviews especially in situations like this where a supporting vendor is evolved but I have to be honest. I think my Pedder's setup is great and the car handles amazing but I had so many issues a long the way that it almost doesn't seem worth it to me now. First off let me say that Pedders and Mid Coast Performance (my local Pedder dealer) have the worst customer service I have ever delt with. It is so bad that it is laughable. Here is how it all went down.

Back on 5-15-08 I found out about a shop in the St. Louis area called Mid Coast Performance from this thread http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=114235 , turns out they were having some event called “Pedders Day”. The day after I found out about this shop I called them up to see if they would install a torque converter for me and setup an appointment for Friday 5-30-08.

The next week I ended up going to their Pedders Day on 5-24-08. I had a great time. I got some free food, a 28 point inspection and best of all I got to ride in shop Owner Gene’s Pedderized Charger R/T. I was very impressed with his car and told him I plan on doing some suspension work in the very near future. A few days after on 5-28-08 I called Gene and let him know I wanted to do the Full Track 2 setup. We agreed to have it started on 5-30-08 when I drop my car off for the torque converter install. The next day I found out that I wasn’t going to have my torque converter in time for the install so we agreed to push the appoint back to Monday June 2nd. Gene told me they could get started on the car Monday morning and it was a 2-3 day install with about 14-16 hours of labor. I told him I’d bring the converter up as soon as I got it so they could complete the install and he said that was fine.

On Monday June 2nd I drop my car off with Mid Coast Performance at 7:30 AM. The guy that was working when I dropped it off told me “We'll start working on it right away”. Two days later I finally get my torque converter, I rush it up to MCP and when I got there I noticed my car was parked in their lot in the exact same place I left it on Monday morning. I talk to the owner’s son Kurt who was working at the time. He told me they were waiting on parts and would have them in that afternoon and would start first thing Thursday morning and could possibly have the car done Friday evening or Saturday afternoon at the latest. I received no phone call from them telling me that they were even waiting on parts. I assumed since they were a Pedder’s dealer they should have had the parts especially since I made an appointment almost a week in advance. So I left the torque converter with them and waited.

On Friday June 6th I call them up in the afternoon wanting to know the current status of my car. Once again they tell me they are still waiting on parts and would have them Monday morning and that they would start on the car right away. At this point I got pretty angry. This is when I first contacted Pedders about this matter. I PMed Paul (Hemi4me) with all the details. He apologized for my inconvenience and he even agreed with me that it was totally unacceptable that they had my car with no parts and he told me he called the shop and forwarded my complaint to the shop owner. In a later PM he even told me that MCP mention nothing about having to wait on parts.

On Monday June 9th I received my first phone call from MCP. I was told they finally got the parts and would start working on my car right away.

Tuesday evening I call them up, not expecting my car to be done but just wanting to know how it was going. They said things were going great and the car would be done Wednesday afternoon. Great, I’m finally going to be getting my car back, WRONG!

June 11th, Wednesday afternoon I call them up to see if my car is done yet. They said they were still working on it and would be done by the end of the day and I could pick up the car on Thursday morning.

Thursday June 12th at 12:00 in the afternoon I get a phone call from MCP. They tell me my car still isn’t done and would be done no later than 3:00 PM. 3:00 PM rolls around and I heard nothing from them. I call their shop, no one answer. I tried a few more times with no luck. I then decided to take a ride up there. I get there and no one is even there. Now I was fuming. I went back home and PMed Paul and let him know what was going on. Later that day at 5:30 I call MCP and someone finally answers. I asked the guy if my car was done and he said he wasn’t sure and he would call me right back. A half hour goes by and no call. I then called him back. He tells me that the suspension is done and they will finish the torque converter by the end of the day. I asked him if they ran into any problems and why it took so long. He told me they didn’t run into any problems and with a smart a$$ tone to his voice told me “We just go the parts on Monday”. After this little talk I was wondering why they didn't have the converter done yet. They had the car for a week waiting on suspension parts, they couldn't have done the converter sometime that week? This lead me to believe that they were lying about not having the parts. They just didn't have time for me.

Finally it is Friday. MCP at this point has had my car for 11 days and I should finally be getting it back. I was really hoping that they would get my car done because I would be making a trip to Columbus that weekend. I call them up in the afternoon and they tell me they are still working on the torque converter and tranny cooler and it would be done by 5:00 PM. 5:00 PM rolls around and I call them and OMG it is actually done. I hurry up there. I write them a check for the job and prepare to leave. Before I left they told me that when they took the car for a test drive they could hear the exhaust clanking up against the car when they went over bumps because they couldn’t get the exhaust lined back up properly.

I drive the car home. The whole way home I hear the clank that they were telling me about. I would have made them fix the exhaust but I didn't have another 11 days for them to fix it so I decided to do it my self. I pull my car up on ramps when I got home. The first thing I noticed was all the clamps on the exhaust were loose. I re-aligned the exhaust and tightened everything down. I go to take the car for a test drive. I get about half way down my street and start hearing the clanking sound again coming from the rear of the car. I turn around and get my car back on ramps for further inspection. While checking the exhaust again I notice this,






A bolt without a nut on it. And Pedders is always saying how dangerous the OEM bushings are on these cars. Now this is dangerous. First I tried to call MCP but they were already gone. I then called Paul at Pedders. He told me he was sorry for all the trouble and told me I'd be better off talking to Pete. I let him know I'd PM Pete and try to talk to him in person if I was able to make the trip to Columbus. I then had to drive up to the hardware store to buy a washer and a nut. I get home and put the new nut on. While I was under the car I decided to check all the other bolts because I was preparing for a long trip to Columbus and I want to make sure my car was safe before I drove it that far. To my surprise, I ended up finding 2 more loose bolts that I had to tighten down. Words couldn't even describe how angry I was at this point.

In the end, I was able to make my trip to Columbus. When I first saw Pete, I went over to him and told him about what happened. He apologized a few times but would always change the subject and start telling me about how great the guys are over at MCP. IMO he didn't seem to think my issue was a big deal at all. Even after Columbus we went back and forth on some PMs and I still got the sense from him that he didn't really care.

While in Columbus I asked Pete if he'd inspect my car to make sure I wasn't having any other issues. He had his guys get under my car and check everything out. They found yet another loose bolt and even worse they notice I'm leaking tranny fluid. We traced the source of the leak and it was coming from the tranny cooler. They didn't tighten the clamps on the hoses that go into the tranny cooler. We tighten the clamps up as much as we could. The next day Eric (hemi31) was nice enough to check my tranny fluid for me. He said I was probably at least a quart low. So I ended up having to add another quart. Later when I got home I actually found out that I was still a 1.5 quarts low.

I thought all my troubles were finally fixed, wrong again. About 2 weeks ago I started hearing another clanking sound, this time from the front. I couldn't figure out what it was so I decided to let MCP take a look at it. I call them up on a Wednesday afternoon and tell about my issues. Once again they still didn't seem that concerned and acted like this is all normal. I told them I need them to look at my car ASAP. I told them I'd be available on Friday or Saturday. They told me I could drop my car off early Friday morning and they'd have it fixed by Saturday. I'm like wait just a minute, you don't even know what is wrong with my car and you are already telling me you'll need it for 2 days? This to me sounded like they don't care about me and they just want me to drop it off so they can work on it when it is convenient for them. I told them how about I bring the car in and look at it with you and if it is an easy fix we'll fix it right away. If it is something worse, I'll leave the car with them. They agreed to this. I brought the car up there first thing Friday morning. We get it up on the left and they re-tighten every bolt on the car. We saw the front sway bar move a little when we tightened up one of the bolts, so we suspect that was the culprit. Now the car is acting fine...... for now. Lets hope it stays that way.

In conclusion to my big review I must say that even to this day I am still extremely angry with both Pedder's and MCP. Because of them, I feel I risked my life driving my car with faulty suspension and because of them I almost destroyed my tranny and my car. They cost me a ton of time, money and head aches. They can try and sugar coat this all they want but what I have said actually happened to me and is 100% true. Although I mostly blame MCP for all of this, I think Pedders deserves a little credit too because their lack of efforts to resolve my issues and the fact that they brag so much about their highly trained Pedder's dealers. It's not even like I'm the first LX they have worked on, they've done about 3 or 4 LXs and at least 1 Track 2 before mine. Till this day, I still have yet to get an apology from MCP, they seem to care less about my issues than Pedders does. Pedders and MCP both make out like this isn't a big deal well IMO this is a huge deal. I don't care how complex the Pedders system is, when I am paying someone $5k+ for a job I want it done right. MCP knew there was clanking coming from the car when they gave it back to me because they told me about it. This is totally unacceptable.
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metgo
BeaSStMaster said:
Thanks Vicki, but I don't need to call as you've made your opinion pretty clear. We're all allowed an opinion and, although we may disagree, what I'd like to see if doing so without the name-calling. That really bugs me.

My $0.02 for what it's worth
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Last night when I got off work at 2 am, I had a PM from Vicki. Then gave me her phone number and said he wanted me to talk to her about my Pedders situation before she made any comments on my thread. I say sure thing, I'll give you a call, what is a good time to call?

The reason I asked her this is because I work night shift and I don't want to be calling people at 3 AM. I woke up this afternoon before work and saw that she had already posted in the thread. And not only did she post she post a ton of false information that I completely picked apart in the LX thread. I really wish she had give me a chance to talk to her on the phone before she had posted. I was gonna call her that afternoon but after reading some of her insulting post I had nothing more to say to her. She denies it but I know for a fact that she has been talking to MCP because she knows way to many personal detail. She has them all wrong but she knows more than what I've ever told her.

hemi4me? said:
I am saddened to read this post and being empathetic won't help the situation. I wish I knew the shop wish I could do something to make it all go away. I am so sorry you had to go through all this I really am.

I think its unreal that a professional shop would do this, but I don't think its something that has never happened before - a machine would never make this mistake but a human? Yah ok I can see that. Does that make it right? NO

I really really hope people look to the root of this thread to see that Metgo likes the Pedders product a lot - as I do. The suspension is rock solid, and the shop that installed mine in PHX, AZ Anthem Motors did a wonderful job.

That being said I do HAVE to clarify one thing. I never once ever heard Metgo ask me for money, compensation, free install, free parts nothing. Nothing makes me more upset than some one saying I did or said something when I didn't. Once again, I never once got a message, a phone call or anything that said Pedders should give you some compensation. I promise that - my cell number is in every post. It never rang once asking for compensation for a loose bolt or anything else.
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I'm sorry this had to be a bad review as far as the customer service even though you were more helpful to me than anyone else from MCP or Pedders. But I am still very pleased with the product.

arfur said:
Yeah - I'd fall back on that argument if I had no answer as well!

Your arguments are flawed. You seemed to come out both guns blazing, basically implying that metgo was the cause of all the problems. You are SO biased one way that it made your 'argument' (such as it was) more of a protective rant.

Now - try and ignore the fact that I am just a teenager (which many forums have thousands of....) and pick through my reply and be so kind as to answer the questions that I put to you.

Failure to do this just shows that you had a little bout of chest-beating and actually have little of substance to substanciate your claims.

The most important question is what was so dangerous on metgo's car and what was he advised?

The other question - seeing as you appear to be slightly mechaniclly minded - was were the old suspension mounting bolts used on the install - and if they were, is it not possible for the witness marks on the bolt, showing that there had been a nut once upon a time, to have come from the original install and not the new install?

I await in anticipation.
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The danger she is talking about is a bushing, that they are talking about in the thread listed below. She obviously hasn't read that either. Basically Pedders lies to everyone about their bushings being bad and tell them they need to buy the pedders ones to fix it. This is what she is referring to when she says I drove my car when there was something wrong with it. She just shows her ignorance about cars and the forums.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=117214

If you read the LX thread where she posted the exact same thing I tore every she had to shreds. You can see that here,
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=1658974&postcount=147
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=1658978&postcount=148

She would start to say a little truth then throw in a ton of crap that she either hear from MCP or made up. She thinks she knows my life story and my financial situation and I am just out to make a buck, well she is wrong. I make probably more than twice as much money as the average person my age, I have a credit score of over 700 and I almost have my Charger paid off after only 2 years of having it. I was baffled when I read her post. She was one of the few people I told any of this to up until now and she supported me all the way. She told me to be careful of the pedders guys and don't let them take advantage of me. When I first told her they were taking forever on my car she tells me I should file a compliant against pedders and I should get some sort of discount for all of this.

But lets just put it this way, whether she will admit it or not some how her buddies at MCP changed her mind from the time I last talked to her. I wouldn't trust anything she says in regards to any of this because she is pretty much just speaking on behalf of MCP. And that is what really ticks me. She is mis-representing her self. She acts like she is a personal friend by calling me by name then starts rambling on without the facts and without even reading the threads. She is not a friend of mine, I've met her 1 time and exchanged maybe 5-10 PMs and most of those were about her Pedder's experience, not mine.
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arfur
metgo said:
The danger she is talking about is a bushing, that they are talking about in the thread listed below. She obviously hasn't read that either. Basically Pedders lies to everyone about their bushings being bad and tell them they need to buy the pedders ones to fix it. This is what she is referring to when she says I drove my car when there was something wrong with it. She just shows her ignorance about cars and the forums.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=117214


OMG - I wish I'd seen this video before all this hoo-haa! And firstly - let me reassure LX owners that this is a crock of [email protected]!!! I can't believe they are peddling something by accusing the OEM gear of being dangerous!!!

Right - for a start - if you look at the way they are 'testing' the OEM bushing, you will see that they are using some kind of extension bar (socket extension?) through the centre of the bush. Now look closely at how far the hand is down the length of this bar!?! As you can see - the force being applied to the bar is at quite a distance from the point at which it enters the centre of the bush/sleeve!!! Anybody see the scam being pulled here?

The person doing the 'testing' is applying a HUGE levering force against the bush. This is NOT the same force that will be applied to the bushes during service!! If anybody can supply me a service picture that shows the bushes working on a bar with that amount of leverage, I'll eat my hat!!! That's the first con of this little story.....

Let me assure you that even with one of their replacement bushes, there will probably be a length of bar that I could eventually use that would move their bush centre around an alarming amount (although I suspect their fix is just to fill the entire void with plastic.....).

Second - the bush does not work in isolation. IIRC, the bushes are in a group of at least two - if not four. Therefore, any loading on the subframe bushes will be devided between all the bushes - not just one! And - I can tell you that once the forces have been devided, you would NEVER see the amount of deformation of that bush as 'advertised' in that clip!!!! Wot a swizz......

Third - if you look at the design of the rubber in the bush - it was never MEANT to be a solid design. It has been manufactured TO allow play between the chassis and the subframe!!! This is in an effort to reduce the noise/vibration from the road/transmission from reaching the passenger compartment!!! It is also to reduce the 'shock-loading' of the torque/power of the drivetrain against the chassis when being used hard!!! All that replacing these bushing will achieve is an overly-stiff attachment of the sub-frame to the chassis, which will increase noise/vibration transfer to the vehicle driver/passengers and increase the fatigue at the chassis mounting points. This increase of fatigue CAN result in the early outbreak of corrosion!!!

You guys have been warned. Yes - there may have been splitting on some bushes - this is a risk with this design and will happen eventually due to ultra-violet light and oxygen attacking the rubber - but not in a year or two (unless the vehicle has been used pretty much exclusively for racing and itself has been over-fatigued!).

I wonder how many of these 'splits' occurred after the 'tester' had 'over-excersized' a part-worn bush (ok abused it...) in front of a customer!!!

LX people - you are being hood-winked into believing that this design is flawed. I can catagorically tell you now, that their 'test' takes the bush outside of it's natural environment. They are seemingly over-stressing the component in order that they SCARE people into changing them out with their 'improved' product. This test PROOVES NOTHING, other than with enough leverage and force, you can get the inner sleeve to touch the outer sleeve - which is a no brainer, as with enough leverage, ANY bush can be squashed to chit!

Waste your money if you want - but this is not a dangerous design flaw and if I were DCX, I'd be getting my lawyers to look closely at these claims.....

Metgo - your vehicle was NOT dangerous by any stretch of the imagination. You were being fleeced. I am so glad that you didn't listen to them. Your dealer (in this instance) was completely correct.

Pedders appears to be spreading half-truths and what some may consider to be lies, whilst performing 'tests' on components well outside their operating envelope just to drum up business. I dare them to put a bar through the centre of that bush, put the hand right at the top of the bar, just below the subframe and try again to get the inner sleeve to 'touch' the outer sleeve just by applying side-ways forces (no levering at a distance, which can be seen in that clip) as would be the case with the bush on the car. Unless the bush has literally fallen to bits, they will not be able to touch the inner sleeve to the outer - I would bet they wouldn't even manage past half-way! And even if they managed half way, they would then have to devide this effect between ALL the mounting points on the vehicle.


She would start to say a little truth then throw in a ton of crap that she either hear from MCP or made up. She thinks she knows my life story and my financial situation and I am just out to make a buck, well she is wrong. I make probably more than twice as much money as the average person my age, I have a credit score of over 700 and I almost have my Charger paid off after only 2 years of having it. I was baffled when I read her post. She was one of the few people I told any of this to up until now and she supported me all the way. She told me to be careful of the pedders guys and don't let them take advantage of me. When I first told her they were taking forever on my car she tells me I should file a compliant against pedders and I should get some sort of discount for all of this.

MMmmmm - don't worry. Her thoughts and opinions were so poorly put down in the post, I doubt that many 1) would have bothered to read all that [email protected] and 2) wouldn't have understood it all anyway. So fear not. You don't have to justify this all to me though. Through all of the info here and some info from other threads, I know who the wrong-doers are, as I imagine most others will have worked out. Sounds like she was buttering you up for a fall buddy. Just ignore her - she has little to say and says it far too loud. Stay well away from her and don't get into ANY further discussions with her (IMHO).

But lets just put it this way, whether she will admit it or not some how her buddies at MCP changed her mind from the time I last talked to her. I wouldn't trust anything she says in regards to any of this because she is pretty much just speaking on behalf of MCP. And that is what really ticks me. She is mis-representing her self. She acts like she is a personal friend by calling me by name then starts rambling on without the facts and without even reading the threads. She is not a friend of mine, I've met her 1 time and exchanged maybe 5-10 PMs and most of those were about her Pedder's experience, not mine.

You are assuming she had any real want to help you anyway! You have to be careful of 'Greeks bearing gifts' sometimes. She sounds like a complete snake to me. Best rid of it. Man, this has snowballed.

Stay safe!
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hemi4me? said:
That being said I do HAVE to clarify one thing. I never once ever heard Metgo ask me for money, compensation, free install, free parts nothing. Nothing makes me more upset than some one saying I did or said something when I didn't. Once again, I never once got a message, a phone call or anything that said Pedders should give you some compensation. I promise that - my cell number is in every post. It never rang once asking for compensation for a loose bolt or anything else.
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From what I understand, because I'm a car noob, there are ALOT of aftermarket companies competing for business. That being said, you CANNOT wait for a dissatisfied customer to ask you for compensation. That is being reactive when you should be proactive. If you had just offered him some form of compensation beforehand he would probably be telling everyone "hey, they messed up the intall but went above and beyond to fix it, this is a great company" How much would it have cost you to take 5% off of his price? A couple of hundred on the front end, but it would have bought you a lot of good will and the dissatisfied customer count probably wouldn't be at 5 right now.

Just my .02.
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bandgeek99
Yes - there may have been splitting on some bushes - this is a risk with this design and will happen eventually due to ultra-violet light and oxygen attacking the rubber - but not in a year or two (unless the vehicle has been used pretty much exclusively for racing and itself has been over-fatigued!).

I wonder how many of these 'splits' occurred after the 'tester' had 'over-excersized' a part-worn bush (ok abused it...) in front of a customer!!!
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I was in the shop when they took off my rear cradle to put Pedder's in. This was done around 18000 miles on the odo, and I saw split bushes. I saw these split bushes before they were separated from the subframe and no one had a chance to modify them before I saw them; like I said I was there when the dropped it and was there during the initial inspection while it was still on the jack. And I have witnesses to that fact.

I'll try to remember when I get home to go through the pictures. I don't know if I have any pictures that show the split before a lever was used, but I didn't need a lever to see the split first hand.

I also had bare metal at the subframe mounts on the body from (I presume, since I can't actually witness this) the subframe moving around while driving and rubbing off the paint. I can't say that Pedders fixed this (again, I can't actually witness it) but what they did to fix it makes sense to me.

While your logic about the lever is completely valid, that does not necessarily mean you can imply they altered the bush or that split bushes do not happen with OEM equipment under any driving style.
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arfur
bandgeek99 said:
I was in the shop when they took off my rear cradle to put Pedder's in. This was done around 18000 miles on the odo, and I saw split bushes. I saw these split bushes before they were separated from the subframe and no one had a chance to modify them before I saw them; like I said I was there when the dropped it and was there during the initial inspection while it was still on the jack. And I have witnesses to that fact.

Fine - you will note that I actually did say it was possible. Not that it was impossible. 18,000 miles is a very low mileage for this kind of failure - how many years was this? If these had been in that state at 18,000 and within 3 years, this would have been a warranty claim. Was the car seen by a dealer (who would LOVE the business) prior to the Pedders touch? Also - what do the bushes look like new? Do they have slots designed into them, which have got ragged with flexing, or was the rubber actually perished? Was the splitting all the way through, or was it at the surface (more akin to cracking)?

I'll try to remember when I get home to go through the pictures. I don't know if I have any pictures that show the split before a lever was used, but I didn't need a lever to see the split first hand.

Would love to see where the splite were - thanks. And the use of that lever would most certainly have made any rip far worse - there is no way those bushes were supposed to be swung around like that. When the sub-frame is bolted to the chassis, does the bush get compressed between the fixing bolt/plate and the chassis underside? There is a reason I need to know this.

I also had bare metal at the subframe mounts on the body from (I presume, since I can't actually witness this) the subframe moving around while driving and rubbing off the paint. I can't say that Pedders fixed this (again, I can't actually witness it) but what they did to fix it makes sense to me.

The rubber flexing would have eroded any layer of paint between the sub-frame and the chassis. Bushes cerainly can wear away paint and this is not a defining clue as to bush failure. The sub-frame is designed to move in relation to the chassis as this is what absorb vibration/noise. I would not expect to see paint still present under the bushes, TBH. However, I would need to closely inspect the sub-frame in place to see what should be worn from where.

While your logic about the lever is completely valid, that does not necessarily mean you can imply they altered the bush or that split bushes do not happen with OEM equipment under any driving style.

I did not say that bushes never split. I pointed out that the video shows a situation that the bushes would never be exposed to. It has clearly been filmed to try and scare people just like you. Unless they can chuck a car on a lift and get the sub-frame to tilt over 30 degrees away from the chassis (which makes me giggle, thinking about it!) this is a totally fictitious event and not a true representation of the deformation of the bushes during use - or a true representation of what the subframe would be doing......

Yes - bushes can split. Depends on the use of the vehicle and the time that the vehicle has been on the road. Will small splits affect the system and make it dangerous - heck no! Is that was is being claimed - heck yes! And it is wrong.

As a point of note - if the bushes are actually crushed in between the chassis and the sub-frame when installed, small splits in the bushes (I'm assuming it was in the webbing area of he bush - between two substantial blocks of rubber?) won't make a huge amount of difference to performance IMHO. Now - if your centre sleeve had fallen away from the outer sleeve of the bush - I'd have been much more alarmed!

I'm not getting at you - you put yor trust in sales people. We all do. I just get sick of scaremongering whilst showing a 'test' that has no validity (in reality).
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bandgeek99
I'm not getting at you - you put yor trust in sales people. We all do. I just get sick of scaremongering whilst showing a 'test' that has no validity (in reality).
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I'm not taking it personally. I actually did Pedders because I was able to get to a killer deal by being a shop's first car more so than seeking it out and getting sold on it. The information I had on Pedders was good (GTO forums, Pedder's web site) and the ideas intrigued me and made sense based on my knowledge. The theory of replacing the bushes etc was run through my trusted independent mechanic and had solid reasoning to both of us. In other words, opportunity knocked and I answered (with some research inbetween).

Now that its done, I'm sold on it. . . and recommend it.

Now that I've thought about it, my review at the time had ALL the pictures:
http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70231

But the flickr link seems to have died (my pro account expired today apparently, and yahoo login is blocked at work so I can't fix it until I get home).

Fine - you will note that I actually did say it was possible. Not that it was impossible. 18,000 miles is a very low mileage for this kind of failure - how many years was this? If these had been in that state at 18,000 and within 3 years, this would have been a warranty claim. Was the car seen by a dealer (who would LOVE the business) prior to the Pedders touch? Also - what do the bushes look like new? Do they have slots designed into them, which have got ragged with flexing, or was the rubber actually perished? Was the splitting all the way through, or was it at the surface (more akin to cracking)?
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You did, I didn't mean to pounce on you. My reading of your post certainly made it seem like you were trying to say it doesn't happen in a statistically relevant level of occurance. My car is an '06, on the road since July 3rd, 2006. No, the dealer did not see the problem. My dealer and I had a very bad relationship before they were closed, and unfortunately they were the best dealer within 30 miles so I haven't established a relationship with a new dealer. And I didn't know they were split, a credit to your point. The splits were jagged anyway, they looked like rips, but did not penetrate all the way through the bush.
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arfur
bandgeek99 said:
I'm not taking it personally. I actually did Pedders because I was able to get to a killer deal by being a shop's first car more so than seeking it out and getting sold on it. The information I had on Pedders was good (GTO forums, Pedder's web site) and the ideas intrigued me and made sense based on my knowledge. The theory of replacing the bushes etc was run through my trusted independent mechanic and had solid reasoning to both of us. In other words, opportunity knocked and I answered (with some research inbetween).

Now that its done, I'm sold on it. . . and recommend it.

Now that I've thought about it, my review at the time had ALL the pictures:
http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70231

But the flickr link seems to have died (my pro account expired today apparently, and yahoo login is blocked at work so I can't fix it until I get home).
Click to expand...
Cheers buddy - you had your reasons and they were the right ones for you - so no harm, no foul :).
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bandgeek99
arfur said:
Cheers buddy - you had your reasons and they were the right ones for you - so no harm, no foul :).
Click to expand...
:beerchug:

PS sorry for the edit while you were replying. . .
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arfur
bandgeek99 said:
You did, I didn't mean to pounce on you. My reading of your post certainly made it seem like you were trying to say it doesn't happen in a statistically relevant level of occurance. My car is an '06, on the road since July 3rd, 2006. No, the dealer did not see the problem. My dealer and I had a very bad relationship before they were closed, and unfortunately they were the best dealer within 30 miles so I haven't established a relationship with a new dealer. And I didn't know they were split, a credit to your point. The splits were jagged anyway, they looked like rips, but did not penetrate all the way through the bush.
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No worries! :)

Right - thanks for the clarification and I think I know exactly what is going on here now. Bear with me.

The problem is - and the sales pitch relies upon..... the word SPLIT.

'Split' is defined as 'seperated' in the dictionary....

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/split

What you have just discribed is not a split - it is in fact a crack, or the start of the rubber perishing - which is a totally natural event for the rubber. It is gradually returning to it's lowest energy state (as does steel when it rusts). This happens to tyres as well.

There is a HUGE difference in the rubber being 'split', compared to it having 'cracks' - which is what you were shown.

If you were to phone me up and tell me that you had a split suspension bush, I would expect to see daylight from one side to the other - in other words, I would expect the rubber to have physically parted.

Rubber cracking is far less serious than rubber that has split......

I think that the term used by some for the apparent damage that has occurred to these bushes has been mis-described. Again - this is even less dangerous than a totally split bush (even if you wanted to class any of this, as dangerous)!!!

I totally agree that rubber can crack within 2-3 years. I would not expect to see it split for 5-10-15 years, dependent on use of the vehicle.

To replace the rubber bushes because they have some cracking is really overkill - even with new OEM bushes. It is also the reason that I doubt you would have got a warranty claim from a dealer for replacement of those bushes. In other words, they were still fit for purpose.

Again - not getting at you buddy - you've just had the problem 'described' to you in a certain way.......

:beerchug:
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BeaSStMaster
arfur said:
What you have just discribed is not a split - it is in fact a crack, or the start of the rubber perishing - which is a totally natural event for the rubber. It is gradually returning to it's lowest energy state (as does steel when it rusts). This happens to tyres as well.

Rubber cracking is far less serious than rubber that has split......
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I really wish you wouldn't use the words "rubber" and "crack" in the same sentence like that. It distracts me ... :2232censored:
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skeletonizer
BeaSStMaster said:
I really wish you wouldn't use the words "rubber" and "crack" in the same sentence like that. It distracts me ... :2232censored:
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Teenagers will do that. :slap:
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dudeiwin86
all i know is that STL thinks shes on top of the world.
im gonna throw that in here without reading the other garbage except what is said about here was enough to warrant my remark.

i would disregard anything he she it says. its garbage.
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C
Bush Integrity

I view the purpose of a bushing to be a limiter... it can be an isolator or insulator as Arfur has suggested. It can be made of various hardness levels of rubber, poly, moly, etc..

My view is somewhat aligned with Arfur, but somewhat aligned with Pedders; once the bushing has cracked, split, or otherwise become compromised, it hasn't failed until the rubber can no longer limit any movement with even the slightest force applied. But it's ability to perform as designed is now compromised; if it could withstand a force of 2000 pounds before it cracked, split, or otherwise became compromised, it can no longer withstand that same amount for force with the same limit (restriction) in movement; it will now allow further movement than before.

Some, most, or (all -1) drivers (one can't use absolutes in this thread, apparently) will notice a change in their cars behavior. As time progresses, the crack may become bigger, the wear may accelerate from exposure to road salt, grime, water, oil, and grease (just to name a few). It will eventually fail to the point that it no longer limits movement; I can't say tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, or you may have sold the car before it outright fails.

I doubt that even those mechanically inclined that are reading this thread are wanting to drop the rear cradly every few months or thousands of miles (some interval comfortable to them) to check on the integrity of the cradle bushings. Even suggesting that there may be a need to do so implies that there was a design or execution flaw in this area. Yet, as far as I know, there are no active TSB's or other informational documentation suggesting that they be checked.

Certainly more so due to age than anything else, I just recently had most of the rear bushings replaced on a 1997 Pathfinder. None of the bushes were split as in Arfur's description (I could not see through any of them). Some were cracked; some had chunks of rubber missing. This vehicle would start rocking after going over a bumpy road patch, like you sometimes encounter on a heavy truck route... One would have to drive about a quarter of a mile after the bumpy patch before the vehicle was under control again. We dropped one end of the front axle brace, and the remaining bush still attached to the car allowed that arm to move in and out more than 18 inches with only the slightest effort. We did the bushings in the upper and lower arms, and all is well again. I guess my point is that with enough wear and/or age, it is possible to have a dangerous situation without seeing the splitting that Arfur suggests.

So Pedders may be more right if they said that this will become a dangerous condition if left uncorrected. Dodge has not seemingly stepped up with their own solution to bushings that are cracked in 18,000 miles or 19 or so months of use (as Bandgeek99 had observed), so who else (besides Pedders) has a solution to the Bush question?
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J
All suspension wear is insidious in that it is incremental. Every single mile you drive causes the suspension to ever so incrementally degrade. You don't wake up one morning and say my suspension has gone bad, well maybe you do but it happened ever so slowly that most people don't notice. That is why at Pedders we advocate inspection and not the arbitrary replacement of parts. If you are servicing a large number of the same vehicle you could make assumptions that at this number of miles these repairs or adjustments are needed based on what you have seen. While you might be close the only way to know is to inspect the car. That is why our inspections are done with the vehicle owner present and participating every step of the way. You see what we see at the same time.



What are you options, very limited. It is a huge investment in research and development to provide a bush that has superior performance to the OE materials and yet is not boy racer rock hard as a daily driver. My guess is that they will be other companies in this market, but with the economy in the current state and the end of production for the LX nearing the end there may not be. More would be better. Then the guys at brand-x could take their turn at driving discussion and bringing to light issues that exist in the LX chassis. Across platforms, you'll find some complete suspensions available for the Mustang from other brands. Pedders is one of a very few companies that makes a commitment to full suspension development for selected chassises. You can use an individual Pedders bit in combination with OE and or brand-x and generally get a good result. You get the best result when a suspension is tuned much like an OE system where the bushes, coils, dampers and sway bars are tuned to work together.

Some of forum life is a royal pain in the ---. Since Pedders made the posts regarding the control arm and radius rod arm bushes a number of forum members have had CHRYSLER warranty their repairs. Some opted for Pedders replacements. Some were offended by the wording. The good news is a picture is a picture. Some of the critical LX bushes not only wear they tear and completely fail. Mike (dms) carries Miester's failed bush as a trophy. It is hands down the worst we have ever seen on any vehicle of any make. Go Miester! Our objective is to present information and contribute to the community. Since the posts prompted people to check their cars and get them serviced they worked. Was the wording perfect -- no. Does it really matter that the wording is perfect -- sorry but it really doesn't. If we waited for perfect we would still be editing the post, getting ready to post, thinking about the wording of the post.... I seem to remember people initially saying no such problem existed and why was it only Pedders making these claims? Because it is what we found in the field so we told you what we found. We try to contribute and succeed more often than not. Many of you must feel the same way as you are still buying product for your LX today. Sometime we don't and you let us know :ack:
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bandgeek99
My Flickr account is back up. As promised here's the pics.

Here is a bush off of my car unmolested straight off the car:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2329224261/in/set-72157604107813353/

And here it is again being molested:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2330058594/in/set-72157604107813353/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2329237393/in/set-72157604107813353/

There are more if you go through the link in my previous post.
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J
metgo said:
Basically Pedders lies to everyone about their bushings being bad and tell them they need to buy the pedders ones to fix it.
Click to expand...
A long time ago we moved from talking to a complete inability to communicate because emotions took over. This occurred before Metgo made his post on multiple forums. I will address one line out of this thread as a direct reply to Metgo. Your statement that Pedders lies to everyone as false as saying we never make a mistake. Please read this post that came through today.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=1659252&postcount=69

LX bushes go bad. They get replaced at Chrysler Dealerships under warranty on some occasions and denied not only warranty but that the tear in the bush is normal and they all do it at other dealerships. Pedders posts about these bushes and Pedders Days brought this LX chassis issue to light on this forum. That is a contribution to the LX community. It is being resolved with OE bits and Pedders bits. It is a reality in the LX chassis.

Metgo had a serious issue on his Pedders installation at MCP. It was a bad mistake. When things like this happen any odd noise becomes a cause for alarm to the consumer. It is why we try to make sure things like this do not happen, so they don't go uncontrollably down hill. It did. We also apologised for and repaired it. It was inspected and reinspected. It should have been be over a long time ago. All of this is prior to the initial post.

Sometimes people are oil and water. There are clearly things about MCP that rub Metgo the wrong way. There are things about Metgo that rub MCP the wrong way. I rub a lot of people the wrong way. That doesn't make anyone a bad person. It makes us all wrong. All of us. He said, she said they did you are.... this isn't going to resolve or fix anything. There are times when nothing more can be said. Hello becomes an inflammatory subject. We reached that point some where in the last few weeks. I didn't know we had. I thought we were all good to go. That shows what I know.

Metgo is not a bad guy. We don't agree on some things and I told him so privately and strongly. MCP is not the Anti-Christ. They are a family business that with very few exceptions have a very fine reputation. There has never been a performance issue with the Pedders bits on Metgo's LX, he told me so. Metgo is very unhappy over the MCP experience and what Pedders did or didn't do. I know because he told us all. I have said more than I wanted too. All of our discussions before the initial post are what brought us to this point. The matter had been discussed and discussed by all parties, thought to be resolved weeks before Metgo made this series of posts. Metgo has his position. MCP has a position. So does Pedders. None of this is new to any of use.

When you can't say hello without your face turning red it is time to either stop talking, agree to disagree or move on to a new portion of your life. Pedders is not going to pay someone to be quiet. We either make them happy with our commitment to getting the car right, getting the car right or we fail. In this case we got the car right but failed to make the customer happy. When we fail you will hear about it on this or other forums. We don't often fail. Customers and Dealers get a lot of runway with Pedders and more specifically with me. We have very few unhappy clients. We lose very few dealers. When the end of the runway has been reached all I can say is a lot of runway has been used.

It is an open forum. Say what you want, but please no more personal attacks by anyone. Let's stock to the facts as we know them because that is as close to the truth as we can get.
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arfur
bandgeek99 said:
My Flickr account is back up. As promised here's the pics.

Here is a bush off of my car unmolested straight off the car:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2329224261/in/set-72157604107813353/

And here it is again being molested:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2330058594/in/set-72157604107813353/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2329237393/in/set-72157604107813353/

There are more if you go through the link in my previous post.
Click to expand...
Thanks buddy. TBH, the bush looks pretty good cosidering the horror stories. The cracking/split (whatever) is through the thin part of the rubber inbetween the rubber blocks - which I suspected it would be - so it's not even through the area which takes most of the abuse. As for the marks on the chassis - not particularly a good protective coating provided by DCX, however, there is nothing nasty about it and looks to be normal wear and tear due to normal operation of the bush with respect to the way it is mounted in the frame.

The bushes did not need to be swapped out due to condition. they seemed fine to me. The abuse sure made them look knackered - but they weren't.

OK - I've said my bit - others have said theirs. Lets hope the 'dangerousness' of the bushes being even slightly perished gets dropped - as it is not true.
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J
bandgeek99 said:
My Flickr account is back up. As promised here's the pics.

Here is a bush off of my car unmolested straight off the car:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2329224261/in/set-72157604107813353/

And here it is again being molested:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2330058594/in/set-72157604107813353/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bandgeek99/2329237393/in/set-72157604107813353/

There are more if you go through the link in my previous post.
Click to expand...
:bowdown: Suspension Porn Pictures :bowdown:
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dudeiwin86
ive got 2 pedders bushings in my car. probably the best 150 bucks i spent on this car (for both).

the bushes may not have been torn that i replaced, but they totally change the feel of that section of the car. (front/steering)

i have also been shown multiple rear bushings in my rear cradle. not the big hard to get to ones, because well... you cant really see em all to well, however. i have multiple cracked/torn bushings and i also have a "shake" that comes from the rear as if the car just doesnt sit firm on the rear end.

is it the bushings? i dono for certain, but id bet money it is because my car did not used to ride like this. i dont fear for catastrophic failure. but there is a difference in ride quality. period.

you can speculate on pedders all you want. take the time to meet them in person and gain a real feel for their knowledge. any body can write things on the internet, just like i do, but you dont really see whats going on til you meet the guys.

if they didnt do your ****ty install themselves, how is it their fault? whether the shop is capable of doing or not may be the question. but even if their the best in the business at what they do, if theyre not going to invest the time, its not going to get done right.

sounds like your shop is a bunch of asses even if theyre good. bottom line.
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J
arfur said:
Thanks buddy. TBH, the bush looks pretty good cosidering the horror stories. The cracking/split (whatever) is through the thin part of the rubber inbetween the rubber blocks - which I suspected it would be - so it's not even through the area which takes most of the abuse. As for the marks on the chassis - not particularly a good protective coating provided by DCX, however, there is nothing nasty about it and looks to be normal wear and tear due to normal operation of the bush with respect to the way it is mounted in the frame.

The bushes did not need to be swapped out due to condition. they seemed fine to me. The abuse sure made them look knackered - but they weren't.

OK - I've said my bit - others have said theirs. Lets hope the 'dangerousness' of the bushes being even slightly perished gets dropped - as it is not true.
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No, it should not be dropped. There are bushes that fail on an LX. A battered rear sub-frame bush is not a hazard. It does lose time in the Traps. It does increase the rear-end step out. They do cause noise on hard launches and turns. Now front control arms are very different because the of the range of motion. A ripped front radius rod bush that allows the arm to bang against the metal froward bracket is absolutely a hazard on the road. I personally inspected a knocking sound that no one could find on a vendors LX at the Ohio Nationals. The passenger side front radius rod arm was laying against the metal bracket while the car was at rest. It had a hard pull to the right on braking -- imagine that. People generally do not look for or expect that kind of failure. Awareness is mission critical. The car passed the track technical / safety inspection, but not our inspection. How much impact did that ten minute inspection have, the vendor will soon be a Pedders Dealer.

We are not running around screaming the sky is falling. All we have ever said is check your bushes, check your bolts in the brakes drive-line and suspension. Drive your car like a race car and maintain it like a race car. Ozone induced discolored rubber in the working area of a bush is not a bad thing. It is normal aging. Cracks are cause for diligence. Tears are cause for repair with OE bits or Pedders bits. It is absolutely no different than saying driving your car with minimum tread in the rain at 80 MPH is dangerous. It is. It is just as dangerous as a shop leaving a nut off an installation. It is unacceptable. It is dangerous. It shouldn't happen. It is unacceptable at a Pedders shop and it is unacceptable for a vehicle owner.

This is from a GTO that the owner thought was fine. He purchased a Pedders Track II system as an upgrade. It was over due maintenance.


How about this car misaligned to the point the strut tube weld at the spring perch is cutting a groove into the tire sidewall.


These are cracks that deserve to be watched because they will result in tears at some point in the future on an LX.


The tear in this bush is in the NVH voided area. Which is where we would expect this SRT8 bush to fail. That doesn't mean it is ok. It means this is the weakest part of the bush.



Pedders is a very detailed organization. For good reason. We see what people drive on every day and frequently it isn't good. We are not perfect. We don't say or do everything right. But we are right on this subject. Any worn torn, damaged or failed suspension bits on any car should be replaced with OE spec or better components. Missing nuts and bolts from the consumer end or Pedders Dealer are also absolutely not acceptable and bother me just as much and more. Not to do this results in a potentially dangerous vehicle on the road.
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