"staccato type action" Exactly what are you talking about here?
I simply used the term to be a rapid succession of the metals catching and then sliding a little then catching again and then sliding a little causing the damage on the surface of the camshaft and the position of the roller. I have seen this before besides your pictures on different applications. Oil being part slippery to cause flat spotting and then the oil experiences thermal shearing and the metals then friction wear together. Back and forth once it starts to come apart.
I have sent your pictures to one of the engine builders I work with for his opinion as he does hundreds of engines. I will report back.
This newest paragraph is different from what you said before. Now your talking about internals failing first as I've shown/stated instead of saying other oils are allowing roller to slip and slide and flat spot cause oil don't provide enough friction to cause rolling, but yet grinds the metal. Also damage to lobe is showing on both sides of the lobe ramp so riding down the back side makes no sense in any of it as the physical evidence I have seen on my cam, and many other cams does not huge preference to what side of the lobe most damage is on. Pick a horse. The photos your posting show nothing new and are quite standard when searched on internet. The fact this was happening on a different cam metal type supports a design flaw or parts issue even more.
I have the horse that I go with on this and it is lubrication failure first that is in conjunction with other factors....possibly heat treating as I said. But once part of the unit (rollers, roller surface internal and/or roller external) working in conjunction starts to fail, it is a cascade of failure that causes the griding of the surface.
"We haven't seen any engines running long drain intervals with our oils and had any of these issues in 5.7L, 6.1L, 6.4L or 6.2L Hellcat. I don't believe it is luck but formulation. It could be a causation more than correlation. Supposition here.....not selling. Just adding to the knowledge base as we have experience with many thousands of these engines."
This is an oil sales deal.[B/]
This isn't sales of any kind as far as I am concerned. Many thousands of engines with high mileage using what we make and no failures. That is a fact.
As stated in the first post the sample size is entirely too small to be considered viable proof. I pretty sure Dodge has cranked out a lot more engines in various applications since it's introduction and the subsequent highly effect years the failure is being talked about than you have supplied oil to. I also highly doubt the small niche market you have represents a honest segment of proof that this is an oil type issue specially when overall lifter failures per 1,000 engines are I bet actually lower than one would think. Main reason why the lifter failure seem so prevalent is cause people will go online to complain and or ask question when something is wrong vs everything is fine.
While the representative sample is small in comparison to the entire population, it is still hardly not relevant. It is relevant but small enough to be a statistical % of the whole engine family.
It is small unless you are that small %. Then it is more relevant for you like what you have seen. You don't always have to have a "study" to make datum worth considering. We do a lot of racing engines of all types and have seen similar damage on camshafts and on not high pressure oiling surfaces (rockers and pushrods) with the advent of oil formulation changes from manufacturers
Further more, There are plenty of engines that are not running your oil that are fine and have achieved many mile-milestones in the Hemi department alone. Even then many other engines by different manufacturers run same oil as some of us run without issues. I have a Chrysler 3.3 that received bulk oil most of its life before me, and starting at 108K when I got it I started using Mobil non synthetic and currently has 256K miles. Clearly that stuff coming off a parts store shelf isn't an issue.
Different engine design. Different camshaft angle to the head. I have a 3.8L Grand Caravan SXT with over 320,000 miles on it using our oils but it too can't be compared to the Hemi. The Hemi is unique in it's design. How some are surviving and others aren't is the question. One thing I am presently looking into is the different manufacturers of the lifters for Chrysler as they have sometimes multiple suppliers. This may play into it. I will find out and report back.
If this was a formulation issue, and not luck then the failure sample and overall issue would be higher for effected engines vs non-effect engines across the entire board of applications that use the same engine.
I agree with this. I am only reporting what I see based on 38 years of experience. I want to get to the bottom of this as well. I am extremely focused on helping to solve this problem for people here as are you because it flat out sucks when something like this happens to you and you thought you were doing the best you could for your engine.
Do realize, I search a lot when I am in doubt. If I do not understand a wording or meaning I look up definitions and try to correlate it. I do not care one bit about your oils, rather they work or not. I would imagine they do as a lot stand by them. Not my job to prove rather they are worth it or not. I was factoring purchasing them when fluids were due until I started readings your constant sales pitches.
I am glad that you do look up things and digest them. I use them out of my vocabulary and sometimes I get laughed at because of them since a lot of people haven't heard some of what I put forth. Sorry that you don't care about what we do but we do and so do others. What you take as a sales pitch all the time, I see as cogent information about an option that the majority of the people that come here would never know if it weren't put in front of them. People would blindly go to the typical Autozone, O'Reillys and Walmart and pick the same stuff. Since we are a small company we have to talk about things louder than normal and it comes off as a sales pitch. If you actually talked to me directly, you would get a better understanding of who I am and how passionate I am about the expertise we have. I am not going to sit back and be tolerantly silent hoping people will accidently discover our technologies especially the very high price we have to pay to be a vendor here. If other vendors sit back and wait and watch, well, it isn't our money doing that. And yes, we do want to make sales of course as any company does. First and foremost, if we can help protect a system with what we make.....I sincerely believe in doing that. You wouldn't pick up a raw diamond if you never saw one. If someone doesn't educate you as to what it looks like you would assume it was common quartz.
But when you use fancy words, and say silly things like ACES is able to coat inside of an intake to provide a coating to prevent deposit via exhaust where it separates from other combustion gases and alone, it makes it by the valve stems and seals, into the oil where it stains the metal, then travels through pvc system to finally coat the intake I have to question it.
You can question this all you want to but it has been proven to do exactly that. Vaporous lubricity into the intake and also sprayed onto the hot intake valves which produce lubricity in both sets or quad sets of valves as well as internal engine parts while burning.
This is why I post the information that I do that was done 3rd party with no axe to grind or dog in the fight and yes....6 times less ring and bore wear, 4 times less stem and guide wear and 5 times less impact valve damage at worst case. Those are facts not suppositions or opinions. Like it or don't like it doesn't change the objective reality of what it does. :smile2:
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