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"staccato type action" Exactly what are you talking about here?

I simply used the term to be a rapid succession of the metals catching and then sliding a little then catching again and then sliding a little causing the damage on the surface of the camshaft and the position of the roller. I have seen this before besides your pictures on different applications. Oil being part slippery to cause flat spotting and then the oil experiences thermal shearing and the metals then friction wear together. Back and forth once it starts to come apart.

I have sent your pictures to one of the engine builders I work with for his opinion as he does hundreds of engines. I will report back.




This newest paragraph is different from what you said before. Now your talking about internals failing first as I've shown/stated instead of saying other oils are allowing roller to slip and slide and flat spot cause oil don't provide enough friction to cause rolling, but yet grinds the metal. Also damage to lobe is showing on both sides of the lobe ramp so riding down the back side makes no sense in any of it as the physical evidence I have seen on my cam, and many other cams does not huge preference to what side of the lobe most damage is on. Pick a horse. The photos your posting show nothing new and are quite standard when searched on internet. The fact this was happening on a different cam metal type supports a design flaw or parts issue even more.

I have the horse that I go with on this and it is lubrication failure first that is in conjunction with other factors....possibly heat treating as I said. But once part of the unit (rollers, roller surface internal and/or roller external) working in conjunction starts to fail, it is a cascade of failure that causes the griding of the surface.



"We haven't seen any engines running long drain intervals with our oils and had any of these issues in 5.7L, 6.1L, 6.4L or 6.2L Hellcat. I don't believe it is luck but formulation. It could be a causation more than correlation. Supposition here.....not selling. Just adding to the knowledge base as we have experience with many thousands of these engines."


This is an oil sales deal.[B/]


This isn't sales of any kind as far as I am concerned. Many thousands of engines with high mileage using what we make and no failures. That is a fact.


As stated in the first post the sample size is entirely too small to be considered viable proof. I pretty sure Dodge has cranked out a lot more engines in various applications since it's introduction and the subsequent highly effect years the failure is being talked about than you have supplied oil to. I also highly doubt the small niche market you have represents a honest segment of proof that this is an oil type issue specially when overall lifter failures per 1,000 engines are I bet actually lower than one would think. Main reason why the lifter failure seem so prevalent is cause people will go online to complain and or ask question when something is wrong vs everything is fine.

While the representative sample is small in comparison to the entire population, it is still hardly not relevant. It is relevant but small enough to be a statistical % of the whole engine family.
It is small unless you are that small %. Then it is more relevant for you like what you have seen. You don't always have to have a "study" to make datum worth considering. We do a lot of racing engines of all types and have seen similar damage on camshafts and on not high pressure oiling surfaces (rockers and pushrods) with the advent of oil formulation changes from manufacturers




Further more, There are plenty of engines that are not running your oil that are fine and have achieved many mile-milestones in the Hemi department alone. Even then many other engines by different manufacturers run same oil as some of us run without issues. I have a Chrysler 3.3 that received bulk oil most of its life before me, and starting at 108K when I got it I started using Mobil non synthetic and currently has 256K miles. Clearly that stuff coming off a parts store shelf isn't an issue.

Different engine design. Different camshaft angle to the head. I have a 3.8L Grand Caravan SXT with over 320,000 miles on it using our oils but it too can't be compared to the Hemi. The Hemi is unique in it's design. How some are surviving and others aren't is the question. One thing I am presently looking into is the different manufacturers of the lifters for Chrysler as they have sometimes multiple suppliers. This may play into it. I will find out and report back.



If this was a formulation issue, and not luck then the failure sample and overall issue would be higher for effected engines vs non-effect engines across the entire board of applications that use the same engine.

I agree with this. I am only reporting what I see based on 38 years of experience. I want to get to the bottom of this as well. I am extremely focused on helping to solve this problem for people here as are you because it flat out sucks when something like this happens to you and you thought you were doing the best you could for your engine.



Do realize, I search a lot when I am in doubt. If I do not understand a wording or meaning I look up definitions and try to correlate it. I do not care one bit about your oils, rather they work or not. I would imagine they do as a lot stand by them. Not my job to prove rather they are worth it or not. I was factoring purchasing them when fluids were due until I started readings your constant sales pitches.

I am glad that you do look up things and digest them. I use them out of my vocabulary and sometimes I get laughed at because of them since a lot of people haven't heard some of what I put forth. Sorry that you don't care about what we do but we do and so do others. What you take as a sales pitch all the time, I see as cogent information about an option that the majority of the people that come here would never know if it weren't put in front of them. People would blindly go to the typical Autozone, O'Reillys and Walmart and pick the same stuff. Since we are a small company we have to talk about things louder than normal and it comes off as a sales pitch. If you actually talked to me directly, you would get a better understanding of who I am and how passionate I am about the expertise we have. I am not going to sit back and be tolerantly silent hoping people will accidently discover our technologies especially the very high price we have to pay to be a vendor here. If other vendors sit back and wait and watch, well, it isn't our money doing that. And yes, we do want to make sales of course as any company does. First and foremost, if we can help protect a system with what we make.....I sincerely believe in doing that. You wouldn't pick up a raw diamond if you never saw one. If someone doesn't educate you as to what it looks like you would assume it was common quartz.



But when you use fancy words, and say silly things like ACES is able to coat inside of an intake to provide a coating to prevent deposit via exhaust where it separates from other combustion gases and alone, it makes it by the valve stems and seals, into the oil where it stains the metal, then travels through pvc system to finally coat the intake I have to question it.


You can question this all you want to but it has been proven to do exactly that. Vaporous lubricity into the intake and also sprayed onto the hot intake valves which produce lubricity in both sets or quad sets of valves as well as internal engine parts while burning.

This is why I post the information that I do that was done 3rd party with no axe to grind or dog in the fight and yes....6 times less ring and bore wear, 4 times less stem and guide wear and 5 times less impact valve damage at worst case. Those are facts not suppositions or opinions. Like it or don't like it doesn't change the objective reality of what it does. :smile2:

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Brian
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LMBO, How many times did I read "Using our oils" in Brian's posts. It is not a sales pitch! OK Brian
And how many times do you have to just keep on nagging and nagging... At least he's contributing to the post your not... Like I said before alright already... Jezzzz.
 

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And how many times do you have to just keep on nagging and nagging... At least he's contributing to the post your not... Like I said before alright already... Jezzzz.
x3
 

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Discussion Starter #26
So, with help from someone on the fourms the cam and lifters from my car was sent to be tested for hardness and general look into possible failures. The file is a PDF and coping text isn't working. But they stated mostly oil is the problem due to lack of additives with a minor mention of valve spring pressure. Stated that there is the issue of the excessive slippages between roller lifters and cam lobe interfaces due to lack of sticition in the lubricant and that the loads imposed on the parts were exceeded by the OEM recommended oils ability to reduce friction. Did mention the Cam and Lifter Roller tested high on the rock well scale and were felt to be of good casting quality. Also stated lack of discoloration on failure parts the volume of oil is not an issue. Was also mention this was a gradual failure vs a sudden death.


Now, personally I still don't believe oil is the actual root cause due to lack of wide spread issue throughout the engine, but a contributing factor. If it was the failure rate would be way higher in everything hemi equipped. In the report There was no mention of how the pin the needle bearings ride on inside the roller failed and cause. However I do agree on lack of major discoloration on the pins as well which shows lack of heat which says volume of oil is satisfactory.

The mention of valve spring pressure intrigues me as several other folks who saw the cam (older guys) mention the same thing. So my next step is to test some spring pressures on the 5.7, new vs old. See if I can get a few donated. If the valve spring pressure is to low and lifters is chattering/hammering on the lobes that would kinda explain the damage to lobes that were not worn, and the pins wearing on the higher load side. Total theory by clues, no hard evidence yet.


I guess stay tuned. If I can get this PDF to play nice I'll copy the entire letter over.
 

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I think we're all looking too much into this problem. It's a defect in the part. Manufacturing has errors in it. That's why there are quality control people. But parts do slip through the cracks. We'd like to think that all Mopar related parts are of good quality and that the failure rate is low. But it's not the case with these lifters. If it's made with human hands, it's going to have mistakes. We just have to learn from it.

I really don't think oil flow is too much of an issue here (unless you have issues with blockage or pressure problems). I can see maybe if the lifter function is failing, and it's not pumping up well (ticking and slamming down on the rollers). That could be an issue with it. But overall, it's a failure of the parts. Bad needle bearings that wear out and self-destruct the assembly. I mean, there has to be some oil available there. At least some. I know that I plan on getting a set of aftermarket lifters in place of the Mopar ones on my motor rebuild project. One, for cost, and two to get away from an obvious possible failure that their lifters present. If anything, anyone using Mopar lifters should be using a good synthetic oil in their motors. Synthetic performs much better, and will extend the life of parts. A little seafoam in the motor before oil changes here and there is also a good idea too. But, like anything else, all you can do is regular maintenance and hope for the best.
 

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I think we're all looking too much into this problem. It's a defect in the part. Manufacturing has errors in it. That's why there are quality control people. But parts do slip through the cracks. We'd like to think that all Mopar related parts are of good quality and that the failure rate is low. But it's not the case with these lifters. If it's made with human hands, it's going to have mistakes. We just have to learn from it.

The parts in his engine were NOT bad. They came back at 57 rockwell hardness.....even on the end of being brittle. That is not bad or a quality control issue. Steve was very specific on that!

I really don't think oil flow is too much of an issue here (unless you have issues with blockage or pressure problems). I can see maybe if the lifter function is failing, and it's not pumping up well (ticking and slamming down on the rollers). That could be an issue with it. But overall, it's a failure of the parts.

The color of the camshaft and the rollers dictated that it was not an oil FLOW issue but a quality of oil issue.....what was in or rather not in the oil. Read that ILSAC GF5 and API-SN. That is ALL of them spec'd for that engine. He stated it was an oil related failure not a parts or heat failure. He also stated that it is rather low pressure on the cam so it wasn't to high a spring pressure to cause this.

Bad needle bearings that wear out and self-destruct the assembly. I mean, there has to be some oil available there. At least some.

The Brinelling on the surface of the rollers shows the failure of the lubricant again. No color change just wear!


I know that I plan on getting a set of aftermarket lifters in place of the Mopar ones on my motor rebuild project. One, for cost, and two to get away from an obvious possible failure that their lifters present. If anything, anyone using Mopar lifters should be using a good synthetic oil in their motors. Synthetic performs much better, and will extend the life of parts. A little seafoam in the motor before oil changes here and there is also a good idea too. But, like anything else, all you can do is regular maintenance and hope for the best.
Interesting you say "a good synthetic" None of them are that good. Actually they are all about the same in the amount of acidic phosphorous and acidic zinc. They all don't contain adequate magnesium either. Virtually none. 5 ppm to 17 ppm is not good. This includes Pennzoil, Royal Purple, Amsoil Signature Series and Amsoil Euro Blend. All down on packages!

As soon as you put on a tuner, heads, cam, gears.....any stresses that change what the OEM has to work with, all the OEM recommendations go out the window. You need an exceptional product to deal with increased stresses! You can do more than just regular maintenance. It is the product you put in there that matters more than just regular maintenance. ;)

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Brian
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There are good quality synthetics out there. I use Mobil One. It has a high group number under something like Purple (too expensive for my taste). I've been using Mobil 1 in my Kia since day one, and at 268,000 miles, it still has the original timing chain, and burns no oil.

As for "oil starvation" on his lifters, how come all of his roller lifters didn't fail? It's a defective part. I like the KISS method on things. If it quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.
 

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There are good quality synthetics out there.

From your laymans stand point I understand what you are saying about "good" but from a Tribologist stand point, none of them are very good at all.

734 acidic zinc is not very effective on anti-scuff and anti-wear. 605 acidic phosphorus is not much anti-wear and can't be because of the nature of acidity.




I use Mobil One. It has a high group number under something like Purple (too expensive for my taste). I've been using Mobil 1 in my Kia since day one, and at 268,000 miles, it still has the original timing chain, and burns no oil.

Ok, so anecdotally you have had a good experience with your Kia. Many have not and we are talking about the Hemi and not a DOHC 4 or 6 cylinder. The Hemi has a very high in the block cam and a specific need for better lubricants and the independent tests proved it failed. I believe the engine in question was on Mobil 1 but CE9311 can verify that. We have seen even billet steel 6.1L Hemi camshafts come apart due to poor lubricant design. Just is.

As for "oil starvation" on his lifters, how come all of his roller lifters didn't fail? It's a defective part. I like the KISS method on things. If it quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.
Unfortunately facts have to dictate here and the professional racing engine builder evaluated the parts with no axe to grind. This guy also has education from the US Air Force and is a propulsion specialist including destruction and non-destruction inspection with failure analysis. His 34 year professional opinion was improper oil design with lack of stiction in the lubricant causing the rollers to slide instead of spin causing the failure. Camshafts are not static in their torsional lives. They do move around a lot more than people would believe.

The facts tell us that it is a lubricant failure and not a parts failure! ;)

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Brian
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Unfortunately facts have to dictate here and the professional racing engine builder evaluated the parts with no axe to grind. This guy also has education from the US Air Force and is a propulsion specialist including destruction and non-destruction inspection with failure analysis. His 34 year professional opinion was improper oil design with lack of stiction in the lubricant causing the rollers to slide instead of spin causing the failure. Camshafts are not static in their torsional lives. They do move around a lot more than people would believe.

The facts tell us that it is a lubricant failure and not a parts failure! ;)

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Brian
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Ok. So what you're saying is that I'm not smart enough to comprehend how metals and machinery work. And that since I also own a KIA, my findings are also moot. That's fine. Let me also tell you that I was a journeyman machinist for over a decade, and I've also been working on engines since the early 80's. But what do I know. I'm not a fancy race builder with military experience. *shrug*

I'm just putting my two cents in here on an "open forum", which I assumed was open. I have "no axe to grind", and am offering my opinion and views based on my un-tribalistic background. I apologize if I offended you or caused any confusion. I'm just doing what I thought we do here, which is sharing ideas and experiences.
 

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Ok. So what you're saying is that I'm not smart enough to comprehend how metals and machinery work. And that since I also own a KIA, my findings are also moot. That's fine. Let me also tell you that I was a journeyman machinist for over a decade, and I've also been working on engines since the early 80's. But what do I know. I'm not a fancy race builder with military experience. *shrug*

You misunderstand my statements. I have no desire to offend you or sound like berating you at all. I am simply stating from a profession of oil/lubricant engineering that is my daily job that many people believe that what they get off the shelf is good or acceptable and that is in error. Since you are a machinist, you KNOW that metals do not lie. When you look at a piece of metal you can very quickly determine whether it is a overheating situation or metal failure. Also you have knowledge when a piece of metal isn't lubricated correctly. This is what we are stating here. The lubricant failed not the parts. Your education and experience certainly should tell you that.

Hey, it was done third party and reported based on facts found on the actual parts. Nothing more or less. Truth is something to be discovered and not determined. I would naturally go to you for your experience and expertise in being a journeyman machinist. It is what you do. Lubricants and combustion is what I do and speak from that vantage point.

I'm just putting my two cents in here on an "open forum", which I assumed was open. I have "no axe to grind", and am offering my opinion and views based on my un-tribalistic background. I apologize if I offended you or caused any confusion. I'm just doing what I thought we do here, which is sharing ideas and experiences.
It is totally open as a forum. It is the market place of ideas. We discuss and not argue. Not looking to offend but just to offer professional experience to the discussion.;)

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Brian
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It is totally open as a forum. It is the market place of ideas. We discuss and not argue. Not looking to offend but just to offer professional experience to the discussion.;)

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Brian
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If it's truly an oil starvation issue, then the root of the cause needs to be found. Being that the lifters are feed through the galley it would have to be a clogged oil passage. It would have to be seriously clogged up to stop oil pressures. But I still have my doubts.

You're right about that metals do not lie. They will show the product of their environment. What I'm curious about is the hardness applied to the roller/shaft/bearings. More specifically the shaft that the needle bearings ride on. There's also a lot of questions on how the assembly was put together. Did the parts supplier for them have a tight tolerance for fitment? Bearings are either put together right, or they're going to fail. Chrysler has been known to offer good parts of good quality, but there are some things they chince on. Considering all the failures people have been having with lifter/cam failures, it seems evident that the lifter is at fault. For a needle bearing assembly to just lock-up, it takes something extremely wrong. Even with some oil starvation, needle bearings will hold up. But we're talking about a motor with a cam spinning around whipping oil around. It had to have gotten some oil somewhere. I personally feel that the bearings just destroyed themselves. They degraded down and chewed themselves up on metal fragments that wore off of it, due to tolerances of assembly/metal quality/rockwell hardness of the bearing assembly.

I don't know what to tell you. There's a lot of questions and many variables involved. And it's just a bad part to have a failure. Roller rockers have been around for ages. They have been dependable and were really built strong. I looked at the rockers on this motor I took apart on this rebuild. I didn't find any that failed. But I did inspect the way they were. It seemed cheap compared to how many aftermarket ones are. It's not unlike a big car company to cut costs on parts. They just picked the wrong one.
 

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If it was an oil issue wouldn't the millions of other cars be experiencing some of the same issues?
If it's truly an oil starvation issue, then the root of the cause needs to be found. Being that the lifters are feed through the galley it would have to be a clogged oil passage. It would have to be seriously clogged up to stop oil pressures. But I still have my doubts.

You're right about that metals do not lie. They will show the product of their environment. What I'm curious about is the hardness applied to the roller/shaft/bearings. More specifically the shaft that the needle bearings ride on. There's also a lot of questions on how the assembly was put together. Did the parts supplier for them have a tight tolerance for fitment? Bearings are either put together right, or they're going to fail. Chrysler has been known to offer good parts of good quality, but there are some things they chince on. Considering all the failures people have been having with lifter/cam failures, it seems evident that the lifter is at fault. For a needle bearing assembly to just lock-up, it takes something extremely wrong. Even with some oil starvation, needle bearings will hold up. But we're talking about a motor with a cam spinning around whipping oil around. It had to have gotten some oil somewhere. I personally feel that the bearings just destroyed themselves. They degraded down and chewed themselves up on metal fragments that wore off of it, due to tolerances of assembly/metal quality/rockwell hardness of the bearing assembly.

I don't know what to tell you. There's a lot of questions and many variables involved. And it's just a bad part to have a failure. Roller rockers have been around for ages. They have been dependable and were really built strong. I looked at the rockers on this motor I took apart on this rebuild. I didn't find any that failed. But I did inspect the way they were. It seemed cheap compared to how many aftermarket ones are. It's not unlike a big car company to cut costs on parts. They just picked the wrong one.
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If it's truly an oil starvation issue, then the root of the cause needs to be found. Being that the lifters are feed through the galley it would have to be a clogged oil passage. It would have to be seriously clogged up to stop oil pressures. But I still have my doubts.

According to Steve, he stated that it isn't a lack of oil volume. It was a lack of oil quality that contributed to the failure. It didn't happen suddenly but over time according to him. If it had been starvation, the cam and rollers would have a different color than what they do here as shown in the pictures.


You're right about that metals do not lie. They will show the product of their environment. What I'm curious about is the hardness applied to the roller/shaft/bearings. More specifically the shaft that the needle bearings ride on. There's also a lot of questions on how the assembly was put together. Did the parts supplier for them have a tight tolerance for fitment? Bearings are either put together right, or they're going to fail. Chrysler has been known to offer good parts of good quality, but there are some things they chince on. Considering all the failures people have been having with lifter/cam failures, it seems evident that the lifter is at fault.

Yes as to what you are saying up to this point but where we differ is the lubricant being at fault as he used the word stiction.

Stiction -" the force required to cause one body in contact with another to begin to move"

There wasn't enough of either viscosity or more likely additives in the oil to cause the rollers to continue to roll and they start sliding on the surface and as was stated that 10X magnification showed plastic deformation of the surface. This means that it rolled and then didn't then did then didn't and forced the materials to migrate due to the surface lacking sufficient friction to continue to roll properly wiping out the lobes and rollers. Therefore I call lubricant as Steve did.



For a needle bearing assembly to just lock-up, it takes something extremely wrong. Even with some oil starvation, needle bearings will hold up. But we're talking about a motor with a cam spinning around whipping oil around. It had to have gotten some oil somewhere. I personally feel that the bearings just destroyed themselves. They degraded down and chewed themselves up on metal fragments that wore off of it, due to tolerances of assembly/metal quality/rockwell hardness of the bearing assembly.

It had plentiful lubricant but substandard for the application.....and this is a stock engine!

I don't know what to tell you. There's a lot of questions and many variables involved. And it's just a bad part to have a failure. Roller rockers have been around for ages. They have been dependable and were really built strong. I looked at the rockers on this motor I took apart on this rebuild. I didn't find any that failed. But I did inspect the way they were. It seemed cheap compared to how many aftermarket ones are. It's not unlike a big car company to cut costs on parts. They just picked the wrong one.
Part of the Hemi issue is how high the cam is in the block. This was done on the recommendation by Tom Hoover....the Godfather of the Gen II Hemi. Chrysler does use good parts but the geometry is very tough due to the need for a very high lift camshaft and reduced duration to minimize overlap for purposes of emissions.

Lubricants are going thinner due to CAFE standards while performance is going in the opposite direction. Cheaper blends with recognized name brands are par for the course in big lubricant companies today because the price of oil is higher and especially pricing in the additives that we all (as manufacturers) have to buy to make our products. When you have price exclusivity (a ceiling to what people are willing to purchase a thing for) in a product, you have to either hope for more market share by innovative gimmicks (like GTL advertising as an example) or diminish the quality to maintain profit margins.

Remember that an $8.50 quart of Mobil 1 at the factory (including bottling, labeling, packaging and content) cant exceed $1.87 The difference is transportation, warehousing a profit.

Wrong way to make a lubricant for a performance application.:frown2:

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Brian
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If it was an oil issue wouldn't the millions of other cars be experiencing some of the same issues?

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Depending on driving habits and use. Excessive idling and performance use give rise to more failures. You specifically see more of this in newer engines due to the quality in the lubricants made today compared to even 3 years ago. The oil quality and specs are changing so fast as the government continues to regulate them. No one who has an engine that is 10+ years old that has this happen to them readily put the dots together on this. They just consider it an old engine that failed.

However there is not a number known out there of how many have had failures. Remember that it was stated that this happened over time. How much time was not indicated. It would be interesting to investigate the incidence at dealerships and see what they are experiencing. However over and over again we see camshaft issues with a lot of Hemi engines as well as ones that come from other manufacturers like the 5.3L with AFM too. ;)






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Brian
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Here's a thought on this lifter issue. How much end play does the cam have. Normally camshafts have a tendency to drift backwards. But is the cam shifting back and forth at all? I believe there is a lock plate, isn't there? But even with that on there, does the cam shift, or any shifting, might cause some of these lifters to fail from lateral movement (if any)?
 

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Here's a thought on this lifter issue. How much end play does the cam have. Normally camshafts have a tendency to drift backwards. But is the cam shifting back and forth at all? I believe there is a lock plate, isn't there? But even with that on there, does the cam shift, or any shifting, might cause some of these lifters to fail from lateral movement (if any)?
The specs on the 5.7L MDS Hemi V8 is 0.0031 - 0.0114 in. end play. If it is out of these specs then you would have to install a new thrust plate in that case.

This little amount of end play should not affect the lifters significantly enough to cause a failure. ;)

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Brian
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