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This Thread is to provoke a higher in depth mechanical discussion of the Lifter plague. I ask no advocating for any type of oil products to be used as the failures I have seen seem not to care. The sample pools for specific types/weights are too small per issue to easily determine type of oils direct impact on the issue. If there is any thoughts or opinions, or even evidence on other factors I welcome them with credible proof. I highly welcome photos of others failures. I have not seen anyone take the lifters apart like I have yet.


Initial Myths, Thoughts, and Physical Evidence:


Having just finished replacing the Cam & Lifters on my 2011 Pursuit I started looking for as much info on to the cause. I've read a bunch of things but there are had little physical evidence that worked well with the theory. Some say its issue mostly with idling in Pursuits, yet other 5.7 in platforms are having same issues. Also seeing some Pursuits with 5K idle hours and 9K engine hrs and no issues. Look across several boards it appears centered around 2011 is where the majority of these failures are occurring. Some stated MDS was to blame but the majority of my failed lifters were the non MDS type. Read where oil does not have enough friction to keep roller rolling on lobe, causing it to flat spot. Which is kinda weird cause if oil is providing such a slippery surface to not have the roller roll, than be hard for it to flatspot as well? The wear I am seeing do not support this cause. Otherwise the roller would be flat and needle bearings/pin would remain intact relativity. And after looking at all the failed lifters there were no real major "flatspots" but a recessed seized roller with surface wear indication damage from seizing. Also, I did find damage on several cam lobes where lifters that showed no wear (movement in roller) rode on. Also add, I my tapping came, with no other issues. Plenty of power no misfires. I was waiting for oil change interval to have oil analyzed. I started having misfire at idle when cold but smooth and plenty of power up top. After getting misfire I decided for sure it was a lifter.





I currently only have Photo bucket to host photos, but I found a ad on on firefox that allows it to work.


The Cam: Damaged areas seem concentrated on the higher stressed parts of the lobe, ramp up and decline down backside.



This lobe had a lifter with no see-able issues.




Another lobe with odd wear but not as bad.




The worst Lobe that started this. Cylinder #5 . (currently forget if its intake or exhaust)





Complete Cam Photo






The Lifter:

This is the failed Pin the needle bearings are centered around the roller tip rolls on. The wear on all my failed lifters are all on one side non centered. I have several in several stages of wear. This the worse one.







Here are the needle bearings pulled. Note corrosion type scarring on surfaces.







Same Line of photos of a lifter with no appreciable damage.




Note surface of needle bearings







Here is a photo showing the addition of a oiling hole on my new set of lifters (two on far right) vs stock (second from left) and new MDS lifter far left. Perhaps this is a added feature in hopes or knowledge of what is failing?










This in mind I have couple conclusions which may be one, or combination of several. From the failed lifters I am theorize the roller seizes from the needle bearings wearing a groove into the pin on the higher stressed area, which eventually has the roller getting more and more recessed into lifter body and getting crooked in place. This eventually leads to a seizure from metal on metal fitment or massive amounts of heat.



Lubrication- Typically lifters via pushrods /pushrods tube/holes are some of the last items to receive oil. ( I may be wrong, I like to have a oil flow diagram of the 5.7 Hemi if anyone has it) The low angle of placement in the block hinders flow back causing some oil starvation at lower rpms. Middle lifters seem to be most effect so perhaps this could be a head or block oil galley design issue. I noticed that at idle is when I had misfire, but higher rpms I didn't. Perhaps at idle there was not enough flow for lifter to gap the loss height of lobe loss but at higher rpms there was for it to pump up and take up the slop.



Parts/Metal Quality - The typical year range across several boards, platforms, fleet, civilian feels like a parts source of inferior metals that was introduced. May have been a hit and miss seeing that not all vehicles were effected. Bad needle bearings or pin they ride on can both suffer from bad quality or machining. Some of the Cam lobes suggest a brittle surface possibly.



Design - Engine Block / Head designed does not provide enough oil flow to lifters to keep needle bearings from deteriorating and creating the wear on the pin. Also Cylinder # 5 popped up ALOT on searches for failed lifters. However many other cylinders have been toasted.
 

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Are your new lifters the Hellcat lifters? I read on Hemi Shop Talk (Facebook) that the only OEM lifters that you can get are the ones used in the Hellcat. All the same stock numbers at the dealers. If correct, must be a reason for Dodge doing this. Interesting post. TKS:beerchug:
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Are your new lifters the Hellcat lifters? I read on Hemi Shop Talk (Facebook) that the only OEM lifters that you can get are the ones used in the Hellcat. All the same stock numbers at the dealers. If correct, must be a reason for Dodge doing this. Interesting post. TKS:beerchug:



Rockauto : ENGINETECH L5701K Complete Lifter Set. MDS VVT 5.7 engines.
 

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Look at the cam to lifter angle in the Hemi. Tom Hoover suggested raising the camshaft in the block to shorten the exhaust push rod in comparison to the original Hemi.

You even see this problem with the billet steel camshafts as well as the nodular cast iron ones. As I have stated before, our belief is that the oil is too thin while being too slippery and just the right combination of factors.....idling with low oil pressure.....temperature oil shear.....lack of detergent in the oils.......filter not catching enough....too high a bypass micron...... will start them sliding. This is what we have seen and been able to theorize about this type of damage in all the engines.

While not something we have tested, there may also be heat treating issues because Chrysler died in July of 2009 and really didn't get back wholly on their feet till 2012 or so.

Just my .02.

Regards,
Brian.
 

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The Pontiac G8 had the same problem for 08 and 09 model years. The 09.5 did not. GM changed lifters for the 09.5 cars and the failure rate dropped sharply!

It's crap lifters is all.
 

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Early Pentastar V6s have been known to have issues with some of the cam followers--the needle bearings in the rollers give out and the cam lobe can get wiped. The common problem seems to be the needle bearings and the pin they ride on. Could just end up being the pins are made from steel that is not hard enough, causing premature wear (sure looks that way from your pics).
 

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I ask no advocating for any type of oil products to be used as the failures I have seen seem not to care. The sample pools for specific types/weights are too small per issue to easily determine type of oils direct impact on the issue. If there is any thoughts or opinions, or even evidence on other factors I welcome them with credible proof. .

As I have stated before, our belief is that the oil is too thin while being too slippery and just the right combination of factors.....idling with low oil pressure.....temperature oil shear.....lack of detergent in the oils.......filter not catching enough....too high a bypass micron...... will start them sliding. This is what we have seen and been able to theorize about this type of damage in all the engines.

While not something we have tested, there may also be heat treating issues because Chrysler died in July of 2009 and really didn't get back wholly on their feet till 2012 or so.

Just my .02.

Regards,
Doctor Brian.
I said I would stay out of your oil peddling show, but the OP specifically stated no oil discussion. He wanted credible proof. What part do you not understand when people ask you not to peddle your stuff in discussions? Lack of detergent, bad filter, oil to thin. Sounds like a sly sales pitch to me without naming the product.

I still find it funny as hell that your lawyers told you to use a P.O. Box because of trade secrets and that you do not want anyone visiting your facility. LMBO (I should have quoted those responses you made on the other threads, but I said I would stay out. Until you do crap like this!)

I believe you do stuff like this and bombard the forum with your peddling because the stuff really is not selling that well. This is just too hard core sales to be anything other.
 

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I said I would stay out of your oil peddling show, but the OP specifically stated no oil discussion. He wanted credible proof. What part do you not understand when people ask you not to peddle your stuff in discussions? Lack of detergent, bad filter, oil to thin. Sounds like a sly sales pitch to me without naming the product.

I still find it funny as hell that your lawyers told you to use a P.O. Box because of trade secrets and that you do not want anyone visiting your facility. LMBO (I should have quoted those responses you made on the other threads, but I said I would stay out. Until you do crap like this!)

I believe you do stuff like this and bombard the forum with your peddling because the stuff really is not selling that well. This is just too hard core sales to be anything other.
I share what I know from engineering and tribology. I did not sell anything but answered the question what what I believe is the case. Actually, our products sell themselves very well as we get as many referrals as we do questions from the forum. Not more than a small group feels like you do. The silent majority knows who we are and what we do and purchase from us all the time regardless of your foolish statements.

Like it or not, we are here to stay!;)

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 

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@;
I believe you do stuff like this and bombard the forum with your peddling because the stuff really is not selling that well. This is just too hard core sales to be anything other.
I love giving Brian crap, but in all honesty, I don't see where he was selling his product in his statement.

But maybe I missed it?

Griz
 

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This Thread is to provoke a higher in depth mechanical discussion of the Lifter plague. I ask no advocating for any type of oil products to be used as the failures I have seen seem not to care. The sample pools for specific types/weights are too small per issue to easily determine type of oils direct impact on the issue. If there is any thoughts or opinions, or even evidence on other factors I welcome them with credible proof. I highly welcome photos of others failures. I have not seen anyone take the lifters apart like I have yet.
I'm certainly interested as I purchased my R/T with a misfire on cylinder 5. All types of testing show no issues with compression/metal in oil analysis/coils/injectors/etc.

Had PCM reflashed. No help.

Then I noticed it is sometimes related to weather. As in if it rains, I throw a #5 misfire. Warm it up and clear it and it's gone until it rains again usually.

I've put nearly 30k on it since I bought it and have 78k on it now. Blackstone labs is making out better than usual because of it.

I've read everything from running 0-20 wt oil in them on up.

Mine started running better after cleaning out the system a bit from it sitting.

Griz
 

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I share what I know from engineering and tribology. I did not sell anything but answered the question what what I believe is the case. Actually, our products sell themselves very well as we get as many referrals as we do questions from the forum. Not more than a small group feels like you do. The silent majority knows who we are and what we do and purchase from us all the time regardless of your foolish statements.

Like it or not, we are here to stay!;)

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
He specifically asked for no oil discussions but you could not resist to type problems with the oil as a solution to the problem.

For someone consistently harping about how many customers he has (Thousands of 6.4L's) I do not know how you find the time surfing this forum to peddle your stuff. You have to answer that cell phone and talk to everyone dying to get information and order. Thousands of 6.4L owners, there must be twice that number for 5.7L's, at least based on production numbers. Almost forgot, you should at least let the Chamber of Commerce know what you are up to. Do not have to divulge the secret trade stuff, or give them an address. Maybe update what you do at that mysterious place.

https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/northfield-oh/28895079-bnd-automotive-llc

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Bnd-Automotive-LLC-440-821-9040
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
Look at the cam to lifter angle in the Hemi. Tom Hoover suggested raising the camshaft in the block to shorten the exhaust push rod in comparison to the original Hemi.

You even see this problem with the billet steel camshafts as well as the nodular cast iron ones. As I have stated before, our belief is that the oil is too thin while being too slippery and just the right combination of factors.....idling with low oil pressure.....temperature oil shear.....lack of detergent in the oils.......filter not catching enough....too high a bypass micron...... will start them sliding. This is what we have seen and been able to theorize about this type of damage in all the engines.

While not something we have tested, there may also be heat treating issues because Chrysler died in July of 2009 and really didn't get back wholly on their feet till 2012 or so.

Just my .02.

Regards,
Brian.

The issue with this theory is other evidence that conflicts with it. Roller Cams/Lifters by nature have higher spring pressures and more aggressive ramps on the lobe lift than flat tappet. So already we have more seating pressure. Then if the oil was able to allow the roller to slide than it would also keep it from grinding. You can't let some slide from lack of friction and then have wear at it at same time. That's like saying you can eat candy and cake and sit around all day but you won't get fat though! And along with this the failure I am seeing is not the rollers themselves. They are still pretty round and do not exhibit as much flatness as I thought they would. What I see is needle bearings wear out the supporting pin causing the roller to recess into the lifter head. The roller does eventually seize and eat away at lobe. In the photo posted by Krautmaster it too also shows the roller having recessed itself partially into head as well. As stated I haven't seen anyone yet take lifters apart to see and hoping this will get hem too. I am geting alot of info and hits on FB and will share on here when I get done reading it all.



The heat treatment deal sounds like good area. I think they do this to also hardened the surface yes?



I said I would stay out of your oil peddling show, but the OP specifically stated no oil discussion. He wanted credible proof. What part do you not understand when people ask you not to peddle your stuff in discussions? Lack of detergent, bad filter, oil to thin. Sounds like a sly sales pitch to me without naming the product.

I still find it funny as hell that your lawyers told you to use a P.O. Box because of trade secrets and that you do not want anyone visiting your facility. LMBO (I should have quoted those responses you made on the other threads, but I said I would stay out. Until you do crap like this!)

I believe you do stuff like this and bombard the forum with your peddling because the stuff really is not selling that well. This is just too hard core sales to be anything other.



Gonna be honest, Brian did stay within my requests. He did not offer any goods or place name bands out there but gave a theory by what he has seen. I know I clash with him and his sales techniques a bit but I will be fair and say that in this thread he has stayed more or less on topic more than you have. He gave a opinion/theory as requested stating facts from his background. You complained. I get it, his sales tactics to me suck. But I will not hound him relentlessly. It is his job after all and regardless is free to share his idea or view rather we think it's B.S or not. Same as we are free to call him out on what we think is B.S. Two lane road. Fair is Fair.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'm certainly interested as I purchased my R/T with a misfire on cylinder 5. All types of testing show no issues with compression/metal in oil analysis/coils/injectors/etc.

Had PCM reflashed. No help.

Then I noticed it is sometimes related to weather. As in if it rains, I throw a #5 misfire. Warm it up and clear it and it's gone until it rains again usually.

I've put nearly 30k on it since I bought it and have 78k on it now. Blackstone labs is making out better than usual because of it.

I've read everything from running 0-20 wt oil in them on up.

Mine started running better after cleaning out the system a bit from it sitting.

Griz

Care to share your Blackstone report? Weather related typically is due to temp or humidity I would wager. My first step would be keep 5w-20 oil, but try swapping your coils on 5 and another cylinder.












Also add just looked at MDS lifter. MDS lifter has a drain hole on bottom onto roller. Non MDS lifter Does not. Have photos later.
 

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Discussion Starter #16

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He specifically asked for no oil discussions but you could not resist to type problems with the oil as a solution to the problem.

For someone consistently harping about how many customers he has (Thousands of 6.4L's) I do not know how you find the time surfing this forum to peddle your stuff. You have to answer that cell phone and talk to everyone dying to get information and order. Thousands of 6.4L owners, there must be twice that number for 5.7L's, at least based on production numbers. Almost forgot, you should at least let the Chamber of Commerce know what you are up to. Do not have to divulge the secret trade stuff, or give them an address. Maybe update what you do at that mysterious place.

https://www.chamberofcommerce.com/northfield-oh/28895079-bnd-automotive-llc

http://www.buzzfile.com/business/Bnd-Automotive-LLC-440-821-9040
We are a private company and do not publish what sales figures we attain. These sites simply estimate what we are doing and how many people we have. D&B doesn't know either what we do.

We do well over a million dollars per year and have 9 people working here. People who are new are 80 of our phone calls with the majority of repeat customers emailing their orders in and they are filled without ever talking to anyone directly. Sorry, you are way off.

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 

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So do we havew a chicken and the egg thing here?

Does the lifter fail and wipe out the cam? Or does tha cam fail, hitting the lifter boss (flange holding the pin, needles and roller) and the debris destroy the lifter?
 

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The issue with this theory is other evidence that conflicts with it. Roller Cams/Lifters by nature have higher spring pressures and more aggressive ramps on the lobe lift than flat tappet. So already we have more seating pressure. Then if the oil was able to allow the roller to slide than it would also keep it from grinding. You can't let some slide from lack of friction and then have wear at it at same time. That's like saying you can eat candy and cake and sit around all day but you won't get fat though! And along with this the failure I am seeing is not the rollers themselves. They are still pretty round and do not exhibit as much flatness as I thought they would. What I see is needle bearings wear out the supporting pin causing the roller to recess into the lifter head. The roller does eventually seize and eat away at lobe. In the photo posted by Krautmaster it too also shows the roller having recessed itself partially into head as well. As stated I haven't seen anyone yet take lifters apart to see and hoping this will get hem too. I am geting alot of info and hits on FB and will share on here when I get done reading it all.

What I am seeing in the inspections that I have personally witnessed is the oil allowing the roller/internals as you pictured to flat spot first and then jamb in rolling and have a staccato type action on the lobe and then cause searing heat because of the lack of rolling and then ride the cam down and produce the clearance due to the grinding.







The heat treatment deal sounds like good area. I think they do this to also hardened the surface yes?

Surface hardening and not through hardening as I understand from the engineers that I have talked to. Especially on the nodular cams/rollers. I don't know the rockwell B or C scale though. The pictures by the way is a billet steel cam and lifters from a 6.1L Hemi V8.

We haven't seen any engines running long drain intervals with our oils and had any of these issues in 5.7L, 6.1L, 6.4L or 6.2L Hellcat. I don't believe it is luck but formulation. It could be a causation more than correlation. Supposition here.....not selling. Just adding to the knowledge base as we have experience with many thousands of these engines.
Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
 

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Discussion Starter #20
What I am seeing in the inspections that I have personally witnessed is the oil allowing the roller/internals as you pictured to flat spot first and then jamb in rolling and have a staccato type action on the lobe and then cause searing heat because of the lack of rolling and then ride the cam down and produce the clearance due to the grinding.




What I am seeing in the inspections that I have personally witnessed is the oil allowing the roller/internals as you pictured to flat spot first and then jamb in rolling and have a staccato type action on the lobe and then cause searing heat because of the lack of rolling and then ride the cam down and produce the clearance due to the grinding.Surface hardening and not through hardening as I understand from the engineers that I have talked to. Especially on the nodular cams/rollers. I don't know the rockwell B or C scale though. The pictures by the way is a billet steel cam and lifters from a 6.1L Hemi V8.

We haven't seen any engines running long drain intervals with our oils and had any of these issues in 5.7L, 6.1L, 6.4L or 6.2L Hellcat. I don't believe it is luck but formulation. It could be a causation more than correlation. Supposition here.....not selling. Just adding to the knowledge base as we have experience with many thousands of these engines.


Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC



"staccato type action" Exactly what are you talking about here?





This newest paragraph is different from what you said before. Now your talking about internals failing first as I've shown/stated instead of saying other oils are allowing roller to slip and slide and flat spot cause oil don't provide enough friction to cause rolling, but yet grinds the metal. Also damage to lobe is showing on both sides of the lobe ramp so riding down the back side makes no sense in any of it as the physical evidence I have seen on my cam, and many other cams does not huge preference to what side of the lobe most damage is on. Pick a horse. The photos your posting show nothing new and are quite standard when searched on internet. The fact this was happening on a different cam metal type supports a design flaw or parts issue even more.





"We haven't seen any engines running long drain intervals with our oils and had any of these issues in 5.7L, 6.1L, 6.4L or 6.2L Hellcat. I don't believe it is luck but formulation. It could be a causation more than correlation. Supposition here.....not selling. Just adding to the knowledge base as we have experience with many thousands of these engines."


This is an oil sales deal. As stated in the first post the sample size is entirely too small to be considered viable proof. I pretty sure Dodge has cranked out a lot more engines in various applications since it's introduction and the subsequent highly effect years the failure is being talked about than you have supplied oil to. I also highly doubt the small niche market you have represents a honest segment of proof that this is an oil type issue specially when overall lifter failures per 1,000 engines are I bet actually lower than one would think. Main reason why the lifter failure seem so prevalent is cause people will go online to complain and or ask question when something is wrong vs everything is fine.



Further more, There are plenty of engines that are not running your oil that are fine and have achieved many mile-milestones in the Hemi department alone. Even then many other engines by different manufacturers run same oil as some of us run without issues. I have a Chrysler 3.3 that received bulk oil most of its life before me, and starting at 108K when I got it I started using Mobil non synthetic and currently has 256K miles. Clearly that stuff coming off a parts store shelf isn't an issue.



If this was a formulation issue, and not luck then the failure sample and overall issue would be higher for effected engines vs non-effect engines across the entire board of applications that use the same engine.





Do realize, I search a lot when I am in doubt. If I do not understand a wording or meaning I look up definitions and try to correlate it. I do not care one bit about your oils, rather they work or not. I would imagine they do as a lot stand by them. Not my job to prove rather they are worth it or not. I was factoring purchasing them when fluids were due until I started readings your constant sales pitches.



But when you use fancy words, and say silly things like ACES is able to coat inside of an intake to provide a coating to prevent deposit via exhaust where it separates from other combustion gases and alone, it makes it by the valve stems and seals, into the oil where it stains the metal, then travels through pvc system to finally coat the intake I have to question it.
 
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