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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last night I negotiated a deal for a new Charger R/T. The deal was $300 under invoice, plus $200 for window tint. According to MSN Autos, Edmunds, and KBB.com, the invoice for the car I was buying was $30,364. When we started to do the actual numbers, the dealership was using $31,089 as the invoice price. I asked to see the invoice, they declined. The dealer showed me a sheet of paper that looked somewhat like an invoice, and it had all the options for the car listed along with their correct invoice prices. It also included addtional charges such as regional advertising fees, the extra 8 gallons of gas at $15, and some other things.

When I've bought Fords before, all those charges are included in the invoice price. The invoice prices on the internet are correct. Does this hold true with Dodge as well and are these guys just trying to rip me off? They offered to split the difference with me, but I said no, unless they did the deal based on the internet number for invoice, I wouldn't do it. I walked out.
 

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If the dealer is like that........ they are trying to rip you off.

KBB is the source to get that invoice info from. But, lucky you, you can actually buy a charger for invoice, as in HI we can get it for as low as MSRP


John
 

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keep in mind that KBB prices are not always correct...

600 diff between KBB and dealer is not abnormal... the gas thing is on the invoice... regional advertising fees some say are part of it... some say are not... persoanlly I have never let that be an add on...

If they met you in the middle for what invoice was, and did the $300 under... at worst you would have gotten the car for invoice.... which aint to bad of a deal right there....

Now I have no clue if this was through the contacts I gave you or not... and dont care if you buy through them or not... just as long as you get the best price possible for the car you want.....
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Yeah, I agree. At this point, though, it's a principle thing. If they'd been straight with me and said, "Gee, this is really the best deal we can do for you" rather than agree to one thing and fudge the invoice price, that'd have been different. It was compounded by a long series of little white lies throughout the process, the most aggravating was them telling me the car had just been unloaded from the truck and was still wrapped in the plastic and so I'd have to come back today to get it. Then, when the dealer refused to show me the invoice he said it was because he didn't want me to know where the car was. Obviously, he was getting it from another dealer - I had actually driven that car earlier in the day yesterday. Again, if they were honest and told me they couldn't do quite as good a deal because they're doing a dealer swap, that'd have been different.

Oh well, I should just order one. This one had the convenience group II, which I don't really want anyway.
 

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Dutch said:
Yeah, I agree. At this point, though, it's a principle thing. If they'd been straight with me and said, "Gee, this is really the best deal we can do for you" rather than agree to one thing and fudge the invoice price, that'd have been different. It was compounded by a long series of little white lies throughout the process, the most aggravating was them telling me the car had just been unloaded from the truck and was still wrapped in the plastic and so I'd have to come back today to get it. Then, when the dealer refused to show me the invoice he said it was because he didn't want me to know where the car was. Obviously, he was getting it from another dealer - I had actually driven that car earlier in the day yesterday. Again, if they were honest and told me they couldn't do quite as good a deal because they're doing a dealer swap, that'd have been different.

Oh well, I should just order one. This one had the convenience group II, which I don't really want anyway.
I agree on the ethics thing, and like I have siad in another thread... there are LX cars rolling off the line every 90 seconds... so if you can't get a good deal on one... you will get a good deal on the next one
 

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Dutch -

I spoke with about seven different Dodge dealers as I was shopping around for the best price on my Charger R/T. I made it clear from the start that I would be doing a factory order, since I looked through a ton of dealer inventories and never could find the combination of colors and options that I wanted.

For the dealers that wanted to work "from MSRP," meaning that they wanted to start from the MSRP price for my car and then haggle on how much to take off, they never even wanted to acknowledge the invoice prices on the car, and did not want to look at an invoice or put the invoice on the table during the discussions (although I had all that from Edmunds and KBB). Obviously, my discussions with them were quite short. They would tell me "you won't get a Charger for less than MSRP until Christmas."

For the dealers that were willing to work "from invoice," meaning that we started at the invoice price of my car and discussed dealer profit from there, only one of them tried to tack on $480 for a "Regional Dodge Advertising Fee" which they said all dealers in my area (Philly metropolitan) would charge. The dealer who ended up selling me my car never heard of such a thing, and to use his words, called it a "bullsh*t charge." However, I can say that there are legitimate fees for "Additional 8 Gallons of Gas" and "Dodge Customer One Mail Promos" on the invoices. All of the ones I looked at with the dealers showed these charges, and together they're only $40.

It pays to stand firm when talking to these guys. If they won't put the invoice on the table when you are trying to make a deal, they're likely looking to milk you for as much as they can get. However, that's certainly not to say that all dealers are that way. The salesman who sold me my Charger was very upfront, honest, and gave me his best price ($400 under invoice) on the very first try. No BS, no haggling. And after we agreed on that price, then Dodge $500 rebate was applied (some dealers tried to use that as part of the negotiation - another potential sign of dealer hijinx). I walked out very satisfied with the entire process, and when all was said and done, I had seven quotes on the same factory-order Charger R/T from $1000 over MSRP to $400 under invoice! :eek:

Stay patient and stick to your guns, and walk in with a price in your head that will sell you on the car. If the dealer really wants your business, they'll find a way to work with you. Especially if you factory-order the car, they should be even more willing to work with you, since they don't have to worry about the "lot fees" associated with cars sitting in their inventory waiting to be sold. Good luck and let us know how things work out for you! :happy:
 

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Some may say I was suckered, but the invoice listing on my order sheet included the two items that Bluefin74 referred to. They were the "8 gallons of gas" and the "loyalty mailing" which added up to $40. Every single option, package and model price shown on the "FWP" column (invoice), matched what I had found on both Edmunds.com and KBB.com. Since this "cost" is not listed in the MSRP column, it is covered by the profit margin written into the MSRP numbers.

As it has been stated in other thread about dealing and invoice and pricing, I am happy with the deal I arranged, and understand that the dealer will be making money from my purchase. I am not going to rangle about $40, when its likely that I will get a better than average trade-in price. As long as someone is aware of all the component number going into a deal and can live with them, then go for it.

As for Dutch's dealer not willing to show him the invoice, that would be a deal breaker for me since I would want to see all the line items involved in coming to a total.
 

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I am curious Dutch, was one of the other items listed a "Destination" fee of $675?

If so, there is no way to get around that one. Or am I stupid on this one too? It was my understand that $675 destination was added to both MSRP and invoice. In all my calculations I have always added that in to know my "bottom-line" number.

So if you took your 30,364 and added 675, there is still a $50 difference, which I would chock up to the gas and mailing price. What am I missing here? Does everyone else base their "invoice" numbers without these or with? Again, I thought that at least the destination fee was something non-negotiable since it is not a profit to the dealer but a cost "passed on".
 

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Sounds like the guy who gave it to you for $400 under invoice was desparate for a deal. Either that, or he has no confidence that the Charger will be a big seller.
 

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Dutch said:
Last night I negotiated a deal for a new Charger R/T. The deal was $300 under invoice, plus $200 for window tint. According to MSN Autos, Edmunds, and KBB.com, the invoice for the car I was buying was $30,364. When we started to do the actual numbers, the dealership was using $31,089 as the invoice price. I asked to see the invoice, they declined. The dealer showed me a sheet of paper that looked somewhat like an invoice, and it had all the options for the car listed along with their correct invoice prices. It also included addtional charges such as regional advertising fees, the extra 8 gallons of gas at $15, and some other things.

When I've bought Fords before, all those charges are included in the invoice price. The invoice prices on the internet are correct. Does this hold true with Dodge as well and are these guys just trying to rip me off? They offered to split the difference with me, but I said no, unless they did the deal based on the internet number for invoice, I wouldn't do it. I walked out.

Hey man just to let you know, EVERY veh on the planet has advertising fees and destination. I know I have woek in car sales for over 5 yrs. and my father worked in the car buisness for over a decade for over 8 different manufactur's. Edmunds or other sites give invoice before any adds, dest or adv being that destination and advertising fees very per zone. The invoice is pulled directly from dealerconnet.com whitch is chrysler web site. Yes there is a $15 charge for gas (just recently added and usually not there) but you get a full tank upon purchase. Advertising is the comercials you see for your "local dodge dealer" and for all the bilboards etc. Destination is because the manufatcure's all use a rail company (Usually the same co. here in port allen LA they del all chrylsers, GM, and ford) to delever the veh. Also remember it IS unlawful to show "fake" invoices if you say it is one. NOT saying their aren't dealers still doing it, but when you look and edmunds, or any other web site you must add destination and advertising fees. Now a just a little more info. If you look at the bottom of the options side of invoice you will see HB which is "holdback" 3% of sticker, which is paid to dealers when veh is sold. Now if a veh is their longer than 3 moths they have to start paying interest on the veh "floor plan fees". So if you have any questions just ask I'll try to help.

P.S. I usually recomend just a couple hundred over invoice to my customer so I can get paid, straight commision. And no I am not a blood sucking crook I am a good guy :happy:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks very much guys, I appreciate all the input. Bluefin, these guys did every thing you mentioned that you say indicates dealer hijinx.

The dispute was not over the $675 destination charge. Part of it was the gas and mailing thing, but those were such small amounts they didn't bother me all that much. It was the hundreds of dollars in advertising charges that concerned me.

I just called another dealer and left a message with the GM about ordering a car. I want inferno red, sound group II, Sirius, sunroof, and nothing else. I've checked the inventory of literally hundreds of dealers on Dodge's web site and none of them have this combo, so I guess it doesn't make sense to wait around for it to show up on a nearby lot.
 

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P.S. I usually recomend just a couple hundred over invoice to my customer so I can get paid, straight commision. And no I am not a blood sucking crook I am a good guy
LOL!...Hey Bates, I've been in the business for almost 10 years. Ain't it awful, god forbid, if we make a few bucks to pay our bills! Everyone thinks all car dealers and salesmen our crooks. Couple of bucks over invoice is more than fair. Hey we gotta eat too right? Yes there are bloodsuckers out there, but most dealers that I know of anyways gives a fair deal.
 

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BbRT, as a auto consumer I whole heartedly agree. You do deserve to make a few bucks from any sales deal. That is why I always start at invoice and work from there. I have never found a dealer who would even offer under invoice, so I am alway happey with 1, 2, or even 3% above invoice. The past 3 or 4 cars I have bought were 2% over with the new Daytona being a 3% over deal. I get a car I am greatly satisfied with at a price I think is fair, and the dealership and sales guy make some money. Thats how the economy works and I am proud to keep it moving.

The sad part is that there are vast numbers of dealers and salespeople who do not view the industry in the same way you do. It is those folks who taint the job for you all and have created the sterotype.
 

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Billybobs R/T said:
Sounds like the guy who gave it to you for $400 under invoice was desparate for a deal. Either that, or he has no confidence that the Charger will be a big seller.
Quite the opposite, I think. They had already sold two Chargers that day off the lot. This dealer was one that I requested a quote via the Dodge website first before ever walking into the place. He emailed me back a price. I then told him I would be doing a factory order and gave him the exact list of options I wanted (the Dodge website doesn't let you request a quote with your exact options built in). He came back with a price of $400 under invoice for my car built to order. To say I was shocked when I read his quote would be an understatement! :happy:

I think a couple of factors played into it. First, the guy had to spend zero time with me in the showroom or guiding me through test drives. So that was time he could spend selling cars to walk-in customers. Second, I think he figured that I was pretty up-to-speed on the car, its options, and the financials. Finally, since my car was a factory-order, he makes his money in full the exact day my car rolls off the truck. Had I walked into the showroom first and started from scratch, I am not sure I would have received that price.

He also told me, as the Internet Sales Manager for his dealership, that his compensation is based partially on volume. In other words, he still gets a commission, but also gets incentives for turning a lot of "internet inquiries" into actual sales that the showroom salesmen might not get. It may work differently at every other dealer in the world, but that's how he explained it worked to me at his place.

And finally, just let me say that the vast majority of dealers I have interacted with in the past are decent people. I know they're trying to make a living, and that the stereotype of being shifty and shady isn't applicable in most cases. I didn't haggle my dealer down to that price - that was his first quote to me. Somehow, I just couldn't bring myself to say "But wait, I really want to pay more!!" :happy:
 

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Billybobs R/T said:
LOL!...Hey Bates, I've been in the business for almost 10 years. Ain't it awful, god forbid, if we make a few bucks to pay our bills! Everyone thinks all car dealers and salesmen our crooks. Couple of bucks over invoice is more than fair. Hey we gotta eat too right? Yes there are bloodsuckers out there, but most dealers that I know of anyways gives a fair deal.
I agree with this to a point... do you need to make money... well of course, thats why you are there... hell thats why I go to work myself is to make money.... however I still want the best deal I can get....

Plus I have a special place in my heart (the dead part) for salespeople because they think the customer is an idiot... car salesmen have a bad reputation in general..... and there is a reason for it... because there are so many blood sucking morons out there selling cars....

Now do I hate all car salespeople..... nope... just the ones that think that they are god....
 

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hemibates is a god...lol...he sold me my car, but in all honesty i knew i was buying it before i got in the car so he more...ummmm...walked me through the process...i good a good deal so i am happy.

what i like about my bloodsucker (hemibates) is that he is a gearhead and loves muscle, he is passionate about the charger....my .02 cents.
 

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BbRT, as a auto consumer I whole heartedly agree. You do deserve to make a few bucks from any sales deal. That is why I always start at invoice and work from there. I have never found a dealer who would even offer under invoice, so I am alway happey with 1, 2, or even 3% above invoice. The past 3 or 4 cars I have bought were 2% over with the new Daytona being a 3% over deal. I get a car I am greatly satisfied with at a price I think is fair, and the dealership and sales guy make some money. Thats how the economy works and I am proud to keep it moving.

The sad part is that there are vast numbers of dealers and salespeople who do not view the industry in the same way you do. It is those folks who taint the job for you all and have created the sterotype.
Nicely said. The fella who got it 400 bucks below got a great deal. I just found it unsual to get a deal like that on a new model that is a hot property right now. Congrats on your deal.
 

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If you want to order PM me and i'll tell you the guy to ask for.
Thanks for the offer,but I work for Dodge so I'm getting mine for EP price less hold back. ....Now if they only build the car :)
 

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Billybobs R/T said:
LOL!...Hey Bates, I've been in the business for almost 10 years. Ain't it awful, god forbid, if we make a few bucks to pay our bills! Everyone thinks all car dealers and salesmen our crooks. Couple of bucks over invoice is more than fair. Hey we gotta eat too right? Yes there are bloodsuckers out there, but most dealers that I know of anyways gives a fair deal.[/QUOTE/]
Thank you Brother!! Yeah guess what I have a mom too and she has a heart so there for so do I!! But I can understand why some in our area feel that way almost all our local dealers are fair, but we do have one (won't mention any name but..) that does anything to make a deal and $ including bad mouthing and taking advantage of people who don't know any better. I do have moralls and so do MOST salesman. Just wish they all did. In a perfect world......
 
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