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Discussion Starter #1
In case anyone is interested as I have heard it asked on this forum, the factory oil used when you take delivery of your new car is Penzoil, yellow bottle. Nothing fancy. This is based on the FCA contract with Penzoil (at least that was going on when I took delivery of mine) and the oil analysis profile. Bob Is The Oil Guy forum is a good place to get info on this specific topic Here are the wear rates from my car as ppm/1000 miles. First analysis is the factory fill, next is Mobil 1, the next 4 are Quantum Blue, the last is Mobil 1 extended use. The first few reflect the break-in period. Keep in mind the Y axis is log scale, so differences can be larger than they look. Straight lines are universal averages for that engine. There is a steep breakin-in curve so a change about 1K, 5K, and 10K might be the best if you want to get wear down quickly. QB kept wear rates are below average, They went back up with Mobil 1 extended use. I currently have another synthetic in there for a second test. I will be going back to QB based on this data to see if rates come back down. Can't argue with facts.

With that in mind, I have a Durango 4.7 liter that has pretty much exclusively run Penzoil Yellow Bottle and Fram oil filters that is still running at 245k miles. Just pay attention to your machine, and your machine will reward you with long service.

Can we get back in the pool now?

 

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For most people regular oil changes are the key. Most modern oils and syn oil changed regularly will keep your motor healthy.

In my opinion problems happen when you use an M1 MPG increasing oil in a performance/aggressive driving situation.

There Is no doubt there are different wear rates bUt the differeence isnt between 100k or 250k engine life.

People get way to worked up over oil. I think it's because it's easy for every made to change and they can buy a oil test to confirm their purchase. Then of course marketing kicks in.
 

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In case anyone is interested as I have heard it asked on this forum, the factory oil used when you take delivery of your new car is Penzoil, yellow bottle. Nothing fancy. This is based on the FCA contract with Penzoil (at least that was going on when I took delivery of mine) and the oil analysis profile. Bob Is The Oil Guy forum is a good place to get info on this specific topic Here are the wear rates from my car as ppm/1000 miles. First analysis is the factory fill, next is Mobil 1, the next 4 are Quantum Blue, the last is Mobil 1 extended use. The first few reflect the break-in period. Keep in mind the Y axis is log scale, so differences can be larger than they look. Straight lines are universal averages for that engine. There is a steep breakin-in curve so a change about 1K, 5K, and 10K might be the best if you want to get wear down quickly. QB kept wear rates are below average, They went back up with Mobil 1 extended use. I currently have another synthetic in there for a second test. I will be going back to QB based on this data to see if rates come back down. Can't argue with facts.

With that in mind, I have a Durango 4.7 liter that has pretty much exclusively run Penzoil Yellow Bottle and Fram oil filters that is still running at 245k miles. Just pay attention to your machine, and your machine will reward you with long service.

Can we get back in the pool now?

Here's the thing, any manufacturer of oil CAN make a great oil but it costs too much and becomes price exclusive (not enough profit room for all the players from manufacturer, wholesaler, sub-wholesaler retailer to customer in the distribution channel). Plus, manufacturers are not in the habit of wanting you to go too far as it cuts into their profits so change it frequently.

They also are on board to contend with fuel economy requirements and emission requirements. However, no engine oil company HAS to move to a more approved ILSAC GF spec or an API spec because we still have a relatively free country.

What does happen is that if they don't move that way, their competition will murder them in the tv ads and print ads so they are forced to go that direction anyway. Also a lot of pressure from the OEMs to get more and more and more gasoline mileage. The OEM mantra is 4.6 to 5.8 years and done.

Soon we will be seeing a 0w10 weight oil for some of the 16 and 17 model cars. It isn't for longevity let me assure you anymore than the 8 and 9 speed transmissions are for performance......mileage is the game here!

The point is that as an aftermarket manufacturer, we can make specialty and racing products for any car, truck, motorcycle, boat etc and produce the best materials for each and every model and still give great mileage and much improved longevity over time.

The 245,000 miles on the yellow bottle was probably in the 3k to 4k range?

If 4k miles, that is 61.25 oil changes and if 3k miles it would have been 81.66. Had it been on QuantumBlue that number would have been just over 20.

The point is you do get what you pay for and there is a significant difference between the "price oils" and our QuantumBlue. Just changing a price oil more often won't give you the protection so many seek!

Looking forward to talking to you again M!:beerchug:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Because I keep my cars that long, that is my motivation for low wear premium oil. The intervals on the 4.7 are about 5k. But it burns a quart or so now and I have a little start-up lifter noise. If I could have prevented that all the better. I would, as Brian pounts out, have saved a decent bucket of money on 1/3 to 1\2 as many changes and possibly had a cleaner, smoother running engine at this point.
 

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Our Hondas haven't seen any decrease in engine life with 0w20. Brain you're a little dramatic. We don't even burn oil.

Oils have improved and so have engine tolerances. There are new coating etc to reduce friction.

Also most syn oil is 7-10$ a qt. hardly expensive.
 

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Our Hondas haven't seen any decrease in engine life with 0w20. Brain you're a little dramatic. We don't even burn oil.

Ok, so you make a blanket statement that they haven't decreased in engine life. This is based on what? Compared to what? Opinion? Consumer Reports?

Oils have improved and so have engine tolerances. There are new coating etc to reduce friction.

Oils are different, I wouldn't agree that they have improved. I see thousands of samples a month and what is accepted wear is not acceptable.

The oils are getting thinner and with less protection. Tolerances are changing and getting smaller but physics isn't changing and won't change because we use different names for marketing. Coatings wear off quickly. Didn't need them when we had better lubrication with high zinc and phosphorous! Now we need coatings to supplant cheap oils!

A Honda isn't a Chrysler. A 4 cylinder isn't a V8 or a DOHC V6! How about all the Honda transmissions that fail constantly! Too small and get to hot. They call it an Odyssey... why? Because of how many times you get to replace the trans before 100,000 miles!


Also most syn oil is 7-10$ a qt. hardly expensive.
I agree that $7-$10 a quart is not expensive. Neither is $12.76 per quart.

If you can get 5 k miles out of a $7.00 quart of oil and 15,000 miles out of a $12.76 quart of oil, which is more expensive!

61.25 oil changes or 20. For the few dollars more and much less oil dumped in a recycle bin and 41 less filters in the landfill! There is an environmental impact as well!

This is the point that I make. A little more money for a custom design is far better than an everyone's good oil that doesn't contain what is necessary for long term use. The off the shelf won't go past the $10 per quart because it drops their sales. The extra $2.76 we charge can get you much better zinc, neutral phosphorous and diesel quality magnesium. Just a few dollars more.

As you said it...hardly expensive!

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

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What you think, and reality seem to be far apart you see.

Fact is motors are lasting longer, HP has improved, reliability has improved, service requirements on the decline and MPG is up.

Now, having close working knowledge with the chem team at Chevron I can tell you without a doubt oils in the last 30 years have come a long way. Even oils from the last 10 years have improved.

By your logic, the declining weight of oils should have a direct link to engine life. No such facts are present.

By your logic, companies like Honda and Toyota who bank heavily on the reliability and durability of their motors, are only thinking 5-6 years out.

With all due respect, that's foolish.

Engine oils are getting thinner, because motor technology can support it and the oils have improved.

And you're right. Motors are different. Have 140k flogging a motor with FRS lined sleeves I'll tell you the coating doesn't wear. It allowed a motor that reved past 8k to consume no oil. Lower friction allows for skyactive technology and better MPG in motors designed to reduce friction.

What I notice about your pitches now, since you cannot prove you're better then Amsoil or Redline, comes down to cost or the environment. Just because a motor you run with your oil goes 250k, doesn't prove that it was better off for running your oil. My Chevron buddies ran a mid-90's honda 320k using the cheapest dino oil and frame filter. Changing the oil once a year. When the car left their hands it burned no oil and ran smoothly.

I think you play up on a lot of the buttons you claim the markets due.
 

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IAM,

Thanks for posting the graphs, some great FACTUAL data.

For other participants in the thread, please stick to the data. or I'll have to close the pool again.
 

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What you think, and reality seem to be far apart you see.

Reality has to be objective not subjective and that is where we differ!

Fact is motors are lasting longer, HP has improved, reliability has improved, service requirements on the decline and MPG is up.

Engines are lasting longer than the 60s and 70s yes and that has to do with metallurgy. Reliability is better and service requirements are less than they were then. Mileage is up due to the gearing and efficiency of the engines and drivetrains. 5, 6, 8 and 9 speeds vs 2 or 3 speeds then.

However, what you aren't talking about is that physics dictate that the more specific output an engine produces, the more heat it produces as well. We know the that rings in the Hemi are thin, that the pistons are as wide as they are long, that they moly coated the skirts to stop the rattle in the bore from piston slap. These engines start eating rings and burning oil due to these facts. Addressing it with tribology stops these problems and the oil analysis continues to prove it.

I too work and worked with GM, Ford, Chrysler and Honda. Have you been to Anna and Marysville and been in the plants with the engineers? I have!

I know what they talk about behind the closed doors because they discuss them with me. It is not all you claim it to be! Going the other way with thinner and thinner lubricants has a law of diminishing returns and we are seeing that evidenced in all the analysis sheets. I talk to the lab techs and we discuss where things have been and where they are going!


Now, having close working knowledge with the chem team at Chevron I can tell you without a doubt oils in the last 30 years have come a long way. Even oils from the last 10 years have improved.

Yes, they have changed. We have gone from (ZnDDP) Zinc Dialkyl Dithio Phosphate to (ZDP) Zinc Dithio Phosphate! 900 ppm ZnDDP vs 900 ppm ZDP...the ZDP is only 40% as good at protecting anti-scuff and anti-rust. The industry has gone to ZDP...why because it is cheaper!

Neutral Phosphorous additives we make have no acid producing or forming characteristics...acidic phosphorous is what you get from the shelf...compromised from the get go!

10 ppm magnesium vs 190 to 500 ppm. 10 to 19 ppm is like wet tissue paper for the sole of your shoe! But I have been over this. You have no understanding and just keep coming back with uninformed anechdotal 3rd party statements!


By your logic, the declining weight of oils should have a direct link to engine life. No such facts are present.

Yes it does and I see it constantly. This is why 1 single formula based on an SAE spec is insufficient protection.

By your logic, companies like Honda and Toyota who bank heavily on the reliability and durability of their motors, are only thinking 5-6 years out.

With all due respect, that's foolish.

Yes, like every car company, they are out to sell cars...it is how they survive. This is why Honda has a 3 year 36k mile warranty with a 6 year 60,000 mile power train warranty. Sorry, but many people want to depend on their cars longer than that! Even Chrysler has a 5 year 100,000 mile warranty on powertrain. Engineers have told me directly to my face that 4.6 to 5.8 years is what they design them for. Good luck after that. We don't accept that here and plan for indefinite time periods and get them!

Engine oils are getting thinner, because motor technology can support it and the oils have improved.

They are thinner because the refineries are set up for massive production of PAO Based oils that get mileage and reduction in emissions and are not set up for long term life. Older engines that are run on the newer oils are tearing up due to their EPA ILSAC-GF5 and API SN specs.

And you're right. Motors are different. Have 140k flogging a motor with FRS lined sleeves I'll tell you the coating doesn't wear. It allowed a motor that reved past 8k to consume no oil. Lower friction allows for skyactive technology and better MPG in motors designed to reduce friction.

Ok, now you are bringing racing technology. Darton FA20 and FR-S sleeves are major modifications for those engines boring out the cylinders and adding the sleeves. We are talking two different realities. You are coming out of left field with these. I am talking about people here with production castings and production internals that we address the issues with. Can we do race engine components....of course but that is not what we started out talking about!

What I notice about your pitches now, since you cannot prove you're better then Amsoil or Redline, comes down to cost or the environment.

Here's the thing. You don't seem to hear anything but what is in your head. What we make is superior to ANYTHING ELSE YOU CAN BUY regardless if it is an ester based Redline or a PAO Amsoil. You hold to your biases without understanding. Oil analysis is the end all for lubricants....PERIOD...everything else is anecdotal baseless statements!


Just because a motor you run with your oil goes 250k, doesn't prove that it was better off for running your oil. My Chevron buddies ran a mid-90's honda 320k using the cheapest dino oil and frame filter. Changing the oil once a year. When the car left their hands it burned no oil and ran smoothly.

The oil analysis of the 250k mile engine and the water test on the heads and the lack of ring ridge in the cylinders and the complete integrity of the babbit on the bearing sleeves are what is evaluated. By the way, it is a Fram filter which is of very poor quality:







Non-uniform pleats, paper end caps and a leaf spring stamping that doesn't even touch the bottom of the filter.

Still anecdotal and here-say on the 320 k miles pictures, measurements, comparisons....not credible!

I think you play up on a lot of the buttons you claim the markets due.
People here aren't fooled. They want substantive data and proof. We submit that and provide that. It is why we are successful working with people here for over 6 years now. Detractors come and go and yet our customer base continues to grow. Because word of mouth and experience produces understanding.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
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