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Something to keep in mind regarding that P2172 DTC: your engine doesn’t have a MAF, it depends upon the MAP sensor to calculate incoming air charge. So a vacuum leak somewhere in the intake system like you normally think of when someone says vacuum leak will not affect your engine. The MAP sensor will take that extra air into account.

So if the engine is actually complaining about a vacuum leak, you can bet your bottom dollar it’s a big one. More likely it’s a malfunctioning or broken part actually. A malfunctioning TB could do it or a missing valve seat might as well.

Whatever is throwing that code is not going to be a loose hose clamp or pinched gasket in other words.
 

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I did re pull all the new spark plugs and all were honestly good looking besides from when it ran rich the few times it did. But when it doesn't run rich they look perfectly normal and I checked all them to make sure the gap size was to .045 or close to it being .001 lower or higher. The throttle body came from advance auto. If I remember correctly since I currently don't have the receipt as thats in the car which is currently not at my location it should be this one: Advance Auto Parts - Down for Maintenance. I did just buy a vacuum test/fuel pressure gauge set at Harbor Freight but have yet had a chance to preform a vacuum test.
I guess you can assume the TB is working as it should, but using the DiabloSport tuner to datalog some throttle PIDs to verify wouldn’t hurt.
 

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2006 Dodge Charger RT 5.7L V8
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Tuner device can’t do a throttle relearn. AlphaODB can, or the dealership.

What kind of TB is it? Where did it come from?

Have you pulled the spark plugs to check their condition? They may be able to tell quite a bit about what’s going on.

In the absence of a compression/leak down test, a vacuum gauge is about the only other thing that will point you in the right direction I think. Unless the spark plugs can tell you something, that is
I'll also look into getting AlfaOBD on my windows tablet that I use OBDwiz and Forscan on with my usb to OBD2 reader.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Something to keep in mind regarding that P2172 DTC: your engine doesn’t have a MAF, it depends upon the MAP sensor to calculate incoming air charge. So a vacuum leak somewhere in the intake system like you normally think of when someone says vacuum leak will not affect your engine. The MAP sensor will take that extra air into account.

So if the engine is actually complaining about a vacuum leak, you can bet your bottom dollar it’s a big one. More likely it’s a malfunctioning or broken part actually. A malfunctioning TB could do it or a missing valve seat might as well.

Whatever is throwing that code is not going to be a loose hose clamp or pinched gasket in other words.
I wondered the same thing and so I been switching between old and new throttle bodies and both seem to work. Don't quote me on that. But now since I can get it to idle by itself every now and then, when it does idle by itself it'll almost seem to starve for air and then the red lightning bolt symbol starts flashing and idles super rough like no air and thats with the new one. Then it'll throw out a code in the abs system about torque and a P061A code. I should've mentioned that earlier which i do apologize. My heads just running rapid with ideas and trying different methods to find the problem. its hard to focus on just one problem at times cause of my adhd so I do apologize if I jump all over from one thing to the next.
 

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I wondered the same thing and so I been switching between old and new throttle bodies and both seem to work. Don't quote me on that. But now since I can get it to idle by itself every now and then, when it does idle by itself it'll almost seem to starve for air and then the red lightning bolt symbol starts flashing and idles super rough like no air and thats with the new one. Then it'll throw out a code in the abs system about torque and a P061A code. I should've mentioned that earlier which i do apologize. My heads just running rapid with ideas and trying different methods to find the problem. its hard to focus on just one problem at times cause of my adhd so I do apologize if I jump all over from one thing to the next.
Use the handheld tuner to start recording some datalogs of the various engine parameters at work. Injector pulse width, fuel trims, O2 sensors, MAP, Throttle, misfire, etc. The data will show something, it’s just got to be read and interpreted correctly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
Use the handheld tuner to start recording some datalogs of the various engine parameters at work. Injector pulse width, fuel trims, O2 sensors, MAP, Throttle, misfire, etc. The data will show something, it’s just got to be read and interpreted correctly.
Hey sorry for the late reply. Was busy with the holidays and finally was able to get on up to where my car currently is sitting. Here is the data from the Diablo tuner. This is after the 91 Octane CAI tune with mds off was put on while in idle.
Font Rectangle Screenshot Number Parallel
 

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Hey sorry for the late reply. Was busy with the holidays and finally was able to get on up to where my car currently is sitting. Here is the data from the Diablo tuner. This is after the 91 Octane CAI tune with mds off was put on while in idle.
View attachment 302280
It’s hard to make a lot of concrete assumptions without more data, but based on just this snapshot it looks like something is definitely going on. The fuel trims are way out of whack, it’s pulling about as much fuel as it can. So either there is a huge vacuum leak or the TB isn’t calibrated or something. And the O2 sensors definitely don’t agree, so depending on what their normal reading should be, one bank or the other is having a big problem.

I didn’t know there were two TPS readings, I know there’s only one sensor, so I’m wondering what the other reads. Either way, they don’t appear to agree either. I’m wondering if they are supposed to measure the same thing.

Can you capture a longer timeline of data?
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
It’s hard to make a lot of concrete assumptions without more data, but based on just this snapshot it looks like something is definitely going on. The fuel trims are way out of whack, it’s pulling about as much fuel as it can. So either there is a huge vacuum leak or the TB isn’t calibrated or something. And the O2 sensors definitely don’t agree, so depending on what their normal reading should be, one bank or the other is having a big problem.

I didn’t know there were two TPS readings, I know there’s only one sensor, so I’m wondering what the other reads. Either way, they don’t appear to agree either. I’m wondering if they are supposed to measure the same thing.

Can you capture a longer timeline of data?
Thanks for the help, you def know more about the readings than I do so I attached the link to my google drive so you can download and view the .txt file in the Diablo Data Viewer. The file was recorded on December 30th. A little update since I last posted: I noticed oil on my catalytic converter and thought it may be coming from the valve cover after I replaced the gaskets on the passenger side. I re-pulled it and reset all the gaskets much tighter and while I was at it pulled all 8 new spark plugs for that side. The front 4 spark plugs closest to the headlights were blackened a little like it was running rich and smelled of gasoline and was dry. Cleaned them up as best as possible and put them back and torqued them to spec. Now the last 4 spark plugs were had some weird muddy gunk on them but the coil pack boots were bone dry. All 4 of those spark plugs were still nice and silver with no blackening at all. But the gaps on those 4 were all bent closed and had lots of little dents on them. Idk what may have happened but I re gapped them to size for the time being and cleaned out as much of the muddy gunk stuff as possible and reinstalled the spark plugs. I just checked last night after hauling the charger home from where it was at and theres still oil coming down the side of the engine and onto the cat. I can also now from a cold start idle without the need of holding my foot on the gas pedal and put it in drive and move it. Although once its in drive it runs worse than it does idling and the brake pedal stiffens up immensely. But once I pop it in park it returns to normal. I inspected further under the car for the oil leak and am still baffled as the valve cover is dry. It almost looks as if the oil is coming from the exhaust manifold honestly, since the oil is more built up in that area before running down the side of the engine. I'm intrigued but am holding off on taking anything major apart yet because I wanna go some more investigating and will try and take out the back 4 spark plugs to see if they may have re-bent or if it was just a fluke thing. Hoping I don't gotta tear down that side of the motor to replace anything internal. Will keep you updated if I find out anything else and hopefully you can interpret the data further with this data log file. If you need a longer run than just four minutes I can do another data log for longer. Thanks again for all the help!
Diablo Data Log File
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
It’s hard to make a lot of concrete assumptions without more data, but based on just this snapshot it looks like something is definitely going on. The fuel trims are way out of whack, it’s pulling about as much fuel as it can. So either there is a huge vacuum leak or the TB isn’t calibrated or something. And the O2 sensors definitely don’t agree, so depending on what their normal reading should be, one bank or the other is having a big problem.

I didn’t know there were two TPS readings, I know there’s only one sensor, so I’m wondering what the other reads. Either way, they don’t appear to agree either. I’m wondering if they are supposed to measure the same thing.

Can you capture a longer timeline of data?
I also got the Alfa OBD program but honestly am stumped on how to perform the Throttle Body Reprogram procedure with it on my charger. Can't find anything online about it.
 

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I also got the Alfa OBD program but honestly am stumped on how to perform the Throttle Body Reprogram procedure with it on my charger. Can't find anything online about it.
I don't have the alphaODB setup, so I cannot provide any info on executing the throttle relearn with it, but I'm sure it is detailed in one of the AlphaODB threads on the various forums (ChargerForums, ChallengerForums, LXForums). I know the LXForums AlphaODB specific thread is pretty long, surely it has a few posts devoted to the throttle relearn procedure.

There is also a procedure available in the AlphaODB interface which does a Cam and Crank sensor relearn, but unless you have changed either one of those (or the PCM), those probably won't help much.
 

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Thanks for the help, you def know more about the readings than I do so I attached the link to my google drive so you can download and view the .txt file in the Diablo Data Viewer. The file was recorded on December 30th. A little update since I last posted: I noticed oil on my catalytic converter and thought it may be coming from the valve cover after I replaced the gaskets on the passenger side. I re-pulled it and reset all the gaskets much tighter and while I was at it pulled all 8 new spark plugs for that side. The front 4 spark plugs closest to the headlights were blackened a little like it was running rich and smelled of gasoline and was dry. Cleaned them up as best as possible and put them back and torqued them to spec. Now the last 4 spark plugs were had some weird muddy gunk on them but the coil pack boots were bone dry. All 4 of those spark plugs were still nice and silver with no blackening at all. But the gaps on those 4 were all bent closed and had lots of little dents on them. Idk what may have happened but I re gapped them to size for the time being and cleaned out as much of the muddy gunk stuff as possible and reinstalled the spark plugs. I just checked last night after hauling the charger home from where it was at and theres still oil coming down the side of the engine and onto the cat. I can also now from a cold start idle without the need of holding my foot on the gas pedal and put it in drive and move it. Although once its in drive it runs worse than it does idling and the brake pedal stiffens up immensely. But once I pop it in park it returns to normal. I inspected further under the car for the oil leak and am still baffled as the valve cover is dry. It almost looks as if the oil is coming from the exhaust manifold honestly, since the oil is more built up in that area before running down the side of the engine. I'm intrigued but am holding off on taking anything major apart yet because I wanna go some more investigating and will try and take out the back 4 spark plugs to see if they may have re-bent or if it was just a fluke thing. Hoping I don't gotta tear down that side of the motor to replace anything internal. Will keep you updated if I find out anything else and hopefully you can interpret the data further with this data log file. If you need a longer run than just four minutes I can do another data log for longer. Thanks again for all the help!
Diablo Data Log File
I'll see if I can spot anything actionable in the shared log file
 

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One thing I see right off the bat is that the ECT only got up to 113F by the time you shut off the engine. Are you able to let it continue running until it reach normal operating temp, or is it too rough/missing too badly to continue to let it idle?

The closer to 200F the ECT gets, the more likely it is for the PCM to enter Closed Loop mode and start making adjustments for what the data tells it. At 113F, it's probably still in Open Loop mode and not listening to things like the O2 sensors yet.
 

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First thing's first, go make a backup of the dashboard files in your DataViewer installation folder. For example, on my laptop, the location is "C:\Users\czaps\Documents\DataViewer\dashboards" I'm basically saying use Windows Explorer to go in there and copy the whole "dashboards" folder and either zip it up or save somewhere else so you have a backup copy of the dashboard files inside it.

Once you've done that, then open DataViewer and connect to the car to rrecord a new datalog. Open the same dashboard you opened last time (DCX_05_06?), and make the following changes to its PID list::

1) remove the PIDs listed under the headings I have crossed out in red in the screenshot below
Font Parallel Rectangle Number Circle


2) if possible, remove the RPM under EPDSS heading and add RPM under Performance heading (to go with the Speed/MPH PID)

3) remove the analog inputs under External heading

4) add Throttle Position Percentage PID under Throttle heading like in the second screenshot below
Font Rectangle Magenta Logo Brand


5) click the save button next to the dashboard name at the top of the DataViewer program

6) click record in DataViewer and record a datalog of the engine running.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
First thing's first, go make a backup of the dashboard files in your DataViewer installation folder. For example, on my laptop, the location is "C:\Users\czaps\Documents\DataViewer\dashboards" I'm basically saying use Windows Explorer to go in there and copy the whole "dashboards" folder and either zip it up or save somewhere else so you have a backup copy of the dashboard files inside it.

Once you've done that, then open DataViewer and connect to the car to rrecord a new datalog. Open the same dashboard you opened last time (DCX_05_06?), and make the following changes to its PID list::

1) remove the PIDs listed under the headings I have crossed out in red in the screenshot below
View attachment 302392

2) if possible, remove the RPM under EPDSS heading and add RPM under Performance heading (to go with the Speed/MPH PID)

3) remove the analog inputs under External heading

4) add Throttle Position Percentage PID under Throttle heading like in the second screenshot below
View attachment 302391

5) click the save button next to the dashboard name at the top of the DataViewer program

6) click record in DataViewer and record a datalog of the engine running.
I will do my best to get it to operating temp later on tonight and will perform all the adjustments to the data logging program and upload a new file to my google drive then reply here. Thank you for the info. I'll continue to try and find any kind of forum post about the throttle body and crank sensor relearn with Alfa OBD. I just don't know if I should select a Chrysler 300 (LX) for my car in the software since the Dodge Charger option is only for 2011 and up chargers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
First thing's first, go make a backup of the dashboard files in your DataViewer installation folder. For example, on my laptop, the location is "C:\Users\czaps\Documents\DataViewer\dashboards" I'm basically saying use Windows Explorer to go in there and copy the whole "dashboards" folder and either zip it up or save somewhere else so you have a backup copy of the dashboard files inside it.

Once you've done that, then open DataViewer and connect to the car to rrecord a new datalog. Open the same dashboard you opened last time (DCX_05_06?), and make the following changes to its PID list::

1) remove the PIDs listed under the headings I have crossed out in red in the screenshot below
View attachment 302392

2) if possible, remove the RPM under EPDSS heading and add RPM under Performance heading (to go with the Speed/MPH PID)

3) remove the analog inputs under External heading

4) add Throttle Position Percentage PID under Throttle heading like in the second screenshot below
View attachment 302391

5) click the save button next to the dashboard name at the top of the DataViewer program

6) click record in DataViewer and record a datalog of the engine running.
Also heres what the 4 back spark plugs on the passenger side looked like when I pulled them and all the gaps were non existent. I did already re-gap all 4 and put them back in but I just pulled one out yesterday to check to make sure the gaps didn't close again. They all have like small indents on them.
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Also heres what the 4 back spark plugs on the passenger side looked like when I pulled them and all the gaps were non existent. I did already re-gap all 4 and put them back in but I just pulled one out yesterday to check to make sure the gaps didn't close again. They all have like small indents on them.
View attachment 302411 View attachment 302412 View attachment 302413
This is bad, very bad.

Something is in the cylinders that is bouncing off the sparkplug electrodes as the piston moves up and down. Given the engine’s year model, the most likely cause would be dropped valve seats that have broken up into pieces and are left to ping pong around in there now.

You shouldn’t run the engine anymore until you can stick a borescope down into those spark plug holes and check for debris and other damage.

If it is a dropped valve seat, and the pieces are bouncing around in there, it’s possible the damage is limited to the cylinder head. But they could also damage the cylinder walls, requiring much more work to make drivable again, or even an outright engine replacement.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
This is bad, very bad.

Something is in the cylinders that is bouncing off the sparkplug electrodes as the piston moves up and down. Given the engine’s year model, the most likely cause would be dropped valve seats that have broken up into pieces and are left to ping pong around in there now.

You shouldn’t run the engine anymore until you can stick a borescope down into those spark plug holes and check for debris and other damage.

If it is a dropped valve seat, and the pieces are bouncing around in there, it’s possible the damage is limited to the cylinder head. But they could also damage the cylinder walls, requiring much more work to make drivable again, or even an outright engine replacement.
hm thank you for the information! Heres hoping its just the cylinder head and nothing too major than replacing what is already broken. I will look into getting a borescope down there and see what shape everything is in in the rear 2 cylinders. I'll take some pictures with what I discover and shall update you once I'm able to do so! Thank you again for the help!
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
This is bad, very bad.

Something is in the cylinders that is bouncing off the sparkplug electrodes as the piston moves up and down. Given the engine’s year model, the most likely cause would be dropped valve seats that have broken up into pieces and are left to ping pong around in there now.

You shouldn’t run the engine anymore until you can stick a borescope down into those spark plug holes and check for debris and other damage.

If it is a dropped valve seat, and the pieces are bouncing around in there, it’s possible the damage is limited to the cylinder head. But they could also damage the cylinder walls, requiring much more work to make drivable again, or even an outright engine replacement.
Got a borescope from work so when I get home I’m gonna take out those 4 spark plugs and try and see anything. I truly am intrigued about what could’ve caused the spark plugs to close up and also have small dings in them. When I pulled off the valve cover all the springs looked good and solid. Didn’t see any cracked or broken springs. I wonder if a foreign object got in there and messed around and got shot out into my catalytic converter. Almost 2 weeks ago when I went under the car after I had it running bank 2’s cat was making some unusual crunching or cracking and popping noises almost as if the guts inside where crumbling apart. If the cylinder walls aren’t damaged and only the cylinder head would it be worth it to replace them or get a remanufactured 5.7 Hemi? It’s only the 2 rear cylinders that the sparks were like that.
 

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Per the OP's first post, it's an '06. That explains the misfires and rough idle. There isn't an injector issue, just multiple dropped valve seats. Prime, you are in for a set of reconditioned heads at minimum. Hopefully, the continued running you have done, has not doomed the engine.
I would not run it any more! Those heads need to come off. You can Google 2006 Hemi valve seats dropping. Get some popcorn, and take it in.

Don
 
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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Sorry for the late response. Thought I'd share some pictures on my discovery so far with Cylinder 6. I still gotta check Cylinder 8 to see what kinda damage is done in there. Even though I know there was already damage done I just wanted to get a general idea before I pulled the cylinder head to gather what I'd need to replace it and how the cylinder walls looked from what I was able to see so far.
Definitely just gonna buy a remanufactured cylinder head which I found for around $300 which isn't bad. Since cylinder 6 looks like this, theres no doubt in my mind cylinder 8 looks the same way so i'm gonna replace both pistons as well.
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