[BlueHemi80]

Hello guys!

Long time reader, first time poster.

This post is mostly headed to Brian (370 Hemi), but others are obviously free to share their opinions.

Brian did a good job in the past to explain why other competitor are/are not as good as BND products.

1st that come in mind being a complete analysis of Lucas Oil Upper cylinder treatment in another thread.

I think it would be a good idea to regroup all of those analysis in one thread so when people (like me) searches for the best car fluids, there would be only one stop to get all the fact straight. (By referencing competitors, even when people will search for other products they'll have a chance to come here and see that BND products exist and consider to buy some, yeah I know I'm evil :wink2: and I'm not even paid for this)

For newcomers, the goto product seems to be ACES IV so let's start with its competitors.

We should first bring Brian's analysis of Lucas Oil Upper cylinder treatment.

Next, there are other popular products that would be great to see here (like Gumout Regane), but I won't list them all (we'll list them along the way I guess), instead there are a few products that intrigued me during my research that I would like to see analysed by people with enough knowledge.

Let's group them by patent/base recipe:

--------
Patent 4,585,462 by George H. Kitchen while working at AT&T Bell Laboratories (also founder of ILFC (International Lubrication and Fuel Consultants, Inc.))

- used since mid-80
- insane dosage 1oz:80gallon ~1:10000
- similar claims to ACES IV
- original use was to stabilize fuel in generators that work like once every several years

Most known product:
ILFC Ten 35 / Syntek XFT (Xtreme Fuel Treatment) / Archoil AR6200

AR6200 seems to be the most "advanced" version of the formula.
--------
Robert J. Bell's recipe (not related to the other Bell)

- used since the beginning of time (1927 actually)
- based on the claims, dosage (1oz:10gallon ~1:1250) and recipe secrecy, it look really close to ACES IV

Most known product:
Bell Performance Mix-I-Go / Pro-ma GT5
--------

Please disregard the fact that Syntek and Pro-ma are company with an MLM strategy, I'm obviously talking about the products themselves here.

Now let's see where this thread will go...

 

[BlueHemi80]

Brian's Lucas Oil Upper Cylinder Treatment analysis

Not as exhaustive as I remember it to be, but that will do for now.

Here's what Brian had to say in 2009:

One of the things that I always try to help people understand is that ALL store bought additives are made from one of four things and many times a combination of the four.

ALL of the lubricant and fuel injector products on the market today are made of 4 possible components in varying combinations.

1) Petroleum hydrocarbons (distillates)
2) Alcohols
3) Polymers
4) Metals

Petroleum hydrocarbons (distillates) are what is left over from the refining of a crude barrel of oil that is NOT good or useful for gasoline, diesel fuel, or jet kerosine.

Noone is going to refine a distillate material out of that crude oil barrel that sells for 50 cents per gallon when they can make gasoline, diesel fuel or kerosine that sells for 2-2.50 per gallon from it. If it isn't good for these fuels (ignition properties, octane or even overall volume in these fuels at the refinery) then it isn't good to pour into your fuels at the pump either so adding it is detrimental!

Alcohols strip lubricity and absorb moisture. They tend to cause an engine to lean out suddenly and also increase the chance of piston wall and stem and guide scoring. Moisture promotes rust and corrosion of fuel system components.

Polymers are abrasive and are gummy. They tend to be used as a lubricity component mixed with ether. One popular additive contains poly ether amine. Polymer with ether and amino acids. Not good stuff here.

Metals- This is probably the most popular material to add to additives. The main ingredient is Methyl-cyclo-pentedenyl-MANGANESE-tricarbonol or MMT.

MMT makes your plugs very hard to read, errodes the cylinder bores, and is really really bad to breath. Also not good for your high flow cats that will turn to low flow cats using this additive. The balance or vehicle in this type of additive is petroleum distillates.

Here is the Lucas Upper Cylinder Lube and Fuel Injector additive MSD Sheet.

http://www.lucasoil.com/images/medialibrary/product_msds_9.pdf

Note the Petroleum hydrocarbons (petroleum distillates) plus additives. Petroleum distillates that are added to the fuel system can do some cleaning but when burned, combines with the copper, vanadium and amino acids in the fuels to put more gum and varnish on the cylinder area and down into the oils. Remember too that the octane value of these types of additives are very low....usually in the 15 to 20 octane level. Kinda like adding a wet log on an open fire!

If you really like Lucas, you would love ACES IV.

We contain none of the 4 nasties....So the fuel system gets clean an keeps completely clean and lubricated.... but lubricated not by an oily substance but rather by reaction to heat producing our lubricity. We suspend the oxygen bearing alcohol and keep it from damaging (by corrosion) the fuel system and reduce ring and bore wear by 600% as evaluated by Stock Car Racing Magazine in January 2007.

Hope this gives a window of understanding. :beerchug:

And here what he had to say in 2011:

Actually what I really need to do is a whole series of additive comparisons to show what the differences really are.

But for brevity, the MSDS sheet from Lucas talks about petroleum hydrocarbons and additives.

The thing to really understand with ANY fuel additive is whether or not it has one of 4 things. Petroleum Distillates, Polymers, Alcohols, or Metals.

Since we are talking about Lucas and Petroleum "hydrocarbons" ie: (distillates), remember that the most expensive materials that come out of a barrel of oil is Gasoline, Diesel Fuel, and Jet Kerosine. If they could make the entire barrel of oil.. gas, diesel, and kerosine, they would!! If it is not good for gasoline, diesel or jet kerosine, it is distilled out!!

The octane value of the lucas is about 20, and the "lubricant" when burned turns to a tar/gum residue that promotes bore friction and ends up blowing into your oil. It allows the detergents and dispersants to be used up faster in the oil then without. This is the same stuff STP was selling 40 years ago. Lucas today is the STP of yesterday. I know, different company but doing the same thing to a new generation. Yea, I said to.......not for.

The effect is minimal at best and not good at poor, and damaging at worst with this stuff.

I am providing the MSDS for review.

ACES IV is far superior to this stuff and contains none of the 4 bad things I discussed earlier.

Lubricate door hinges with it instead.

I like the part where he says:

"Actually what I really need to do is a whole series of additive comparisons to show what the differences really are."

Well, Brian, here is our chance to do it

--------
Keep in mind that if you go take a look at the original threads where the quotes come from, there might be other posts that can help to put some of information into context or answers to more questions.

 

[BlueHemi80]

Brian's XFT (Xtreme Fuel Treatment) analysis

It seems there is already some info from Brian about that stuff.

So here is what he add to say about it in 2010:

Yea B,

I have encountered them before. They have really slick marketing videos and they sound really great and talk about the kinds of things that make sense. They have studied what is the right things to say to sound credible anyways.

However, you have to look at their MSDS sheet to get a clue as to what they are doing. I have also posted it on the bottom as well.

http://issuu.com/makeyourgaslast/docs/xft-msds

On the surface, it is hard to understand what is in it as they have proprietary and trade secret on the content area which stops most people.

First of all they mention in section II the following:

Proprietary OIL compound NA Trade Secret
Proprietary Compound NA Trade Secret
Proprietary Compound II NA Trade Secret
Proprietary Distillate NA Trade Secret
Proprietary Solvent NA Trade Secret

Section III

Gives us a little more info on the 6.88 specific gravity. So if water is 8.34 lbs per gallon at 60 deg F we know it is lighter than water therefore is some kind of oil.

Section IV

It has a flash point of 164 deg F (P.M.C.C.) That is Pensky Martin Closed Cup method of obtaining flash point. So it is combustible and has a relatively high flash for a fuel additive. Again we know this is an oil based material due to this info.

However, if you read their other portions of the MSDS (Section VI) you can determine some of the contents that they have.

"This proprietary AMINE compound is a mild eye irritant." Amino acids combine under heat with copper and vanadium to produce gum and varnish. Yes aminos help clean varnish off the injectors but then puts it right back on in the combustion cycle.

Here we see the first inclination that we are right that it is an oil by the Napthenic Oil (causing skin and eye irritation). This is a lower BTU Light cycle type oil that is generally a carrier of another compound that would be the active ingredient in the product. I would say that the oil is in the 80% range anyway.

Now for one of the active ingredients: Hexahydro- 1,3,5-triethyl-s-triazine which is a biocide/bacteriacide additive. Triazine is the chemical species of six-membered heterocyclic ring compound with three nitrogens replacing carbon-hydrogen units in the benzene ring structure. The names of the three isomers indicate which of the carbon-hydrogen units on the benzene ring position of the molecule have been replaced by nitrogens, called 1,2,3-triazine, 1,2,4-triazine, and 1,3,5-triazine respectively.

Triazine compounds are used in formulating bactericide and fungicide. They are used as preservatives in oil field applications. They are used as disinfectant, industrial deodorant and biocide in water treatment. They are used as a bleaching agent.

The amine compound would be Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine also known as RDX for the ignition compound.

This is commonly as RDX. RDX, which also goes by cyclonite, is a white crystalline solid that has been used extensively in military munitions formulations since 1965. When it burns, it leaves residues in the cylinder bores that are not converted.

RDX exerts its primary toxic effect on the central nervous system (CNS) of humans. This is very dangerous stuff!

Chronic or subchronic exposure to RDX by inhalation is characterized by generalized convulsions headaches, nausea, vomiting, and unconsciousness. Seizures may be followed by temporary amnesia, disorientation, and weakness. RDX ends up in the kidneys, followed by the brain, heart, and liver.

Not exactly a green product! By what else I have found about their materials, they claim some kind of benefits in combustion, but when I look at all their data and review the distillation curves they actually lower the IBP or initial boiling point by only 1 degree, raise output by only 1 degree in mid point (50%) and lower it at end point 98% compared to baseline fuels. This doesn't really give you any appreciable gain in anything!

Also the fact that they put the same materials in gasoline and diesel fuel really is a red flag here. The compression ratios of our cars are in the 9.6 to 10.5 to 1 ratio and diesel is in the 17.0 to 22.1 range. You should never be able to use the same product in either type engine. Talk about BS!

I have spent some time looking at their data and frankly, there is really nothing here but another snake oil marketing company trying to put out a product that is 80% carrier with 3% to 5% active ingredients using the Green banner......which is popular these days while incorporating technology that is almost 46 years old. I wouldn't touch that stuff without gloves and certainly would not breath it having RDX in it for sure!

Registered it is, but effective only in lining the pockets of those who are selling it.

It was pretty hard to get a copy of the MSDS, so I had to work it out of that format to get it clear to read for everyone!

All good information here, I guess this all apply to the other additives based on the same AMINE related patent.

 

[Ddaddy]

Well, welcome to the Forums.

You should introduce yourself before posting a bunch of stuff like this. No one knows who you are, what kind of Charger you drive, or what your intent here is.

Perhaps you can enlighten the community you are clearly trying to influence and become a part of.

 

[BlueHemi80]

Thanks for the kind word.

To be honest, what brought me here was this BND Automotive sub-forum. I have been looking for information about fuel additives since a few weeks and eventually found this place with Brian giving plenty of information and answering to other members and talking about why some other additives are not always what they seem/claim to be. And while I understand that the guy is there to sell his products, most of the time his posts seem to be the fruit of real research and show that he is really willing to help people.

So I thought "hey I'm a nice guy too" and wanted to do something to help people like me that search desperately to find something that is not a mere snake oil or even damageable stuff for their cars. So the idea is that since the information is spread all over the threads and forums, it would be great to put it all in a single thread. Then take advantage of Brian's knowledge. In the end I'm pretty sure he will get his own advantages out of this. People like simple things and if Brian can make it simple for them to understand why others' products are not as good as his then BAM customers, customers everywhere.

I also thought that if after an analysis we find a better product from another company it might force Brian's team to come with something even better. I mean... whatever way I look at it there are only good things that can come out of this thread... if people participate of course.

After the fact I noticed that it looked a lot like advertising/solicitation, which was not necessarily the intent, and I hope it won't get me banned/into trouble.

If you still has any interest to it you can find a basic introduction of myself here.

Oh by the way, yeah I said that BND Automotive sub-forum brought me here, but the community made me stay, I'm a car guy at heart and lots of people here seem so passionate and since the Chargers truly are incredible cars there are no reason for me to squat another forum

 

[Jonny]

After the fact I noticed that it looked a lot like advertising/solicitation, which was not necessarily the intent, and I hope it won't get me banned/into trouble.

This (Supporting Vendors>BND Automotive section) is the place to advertise and solicit his products. This part is his forum. You won't get banned for that here.

No videos of the can test with Lucas? That really needs to be here.

 

[370 HEMI]

Thanks for the kind word.

To be honest, what brought me here was this BND Automotive sub-forum. I have been looking for information about fuel additives since a few weeks and eventually found this place with Brian giving plenty of information and answering to other members and talking about why some other additives are not always what they seem/claim to be. And while I understand that the guy is there to sell his products, most of the time his posts seem to be the fruit of real research and show that he is really willing to help people.

So I thought "hey I'm a nice guy too" and wanted to do something to help people like me that search desperately to find something that is not a mere snake oil or even damageable stuff for their cars. So the idea is that since the information is spread all over the threads and forums, it would be great to put it all in a single thread. Then take advantage of Brian's knowledge. In the end I'm pretty sure he will get his own advantages out of this. People like simple things and if Brian can make it simple for them to understand why others' products are not as good as his then BAM customers, customers everywhere.

I also thought that if after an analysis we find a better product from another company it might force Brian's team to come with something even better. I mean... whatever way I look at it there are only good things that can come out of this thread... if people participate of course.

After the fact I noticed that it looked a lot like advertising/solicitation, which was not necessarily the intent, and I hope it won't get me banned/into trouble.

If you still has any interest to it you can find a basic introduction of myself here.

Oh by the way, yeah I said that BND Automotive sub-forum brought me here, but the community made me stay, I'm a car guy at heart and lots of people here seem so passionate and since the Chargers truly are incredible cars there are no reason for me to squat another forum

The only problem with your idea here is that there is such subterfuge (1: deception by artifice or strategem in order to conceal, escape, or evade
2: a deceptive device or stratagem) in the fuel additive business that to discuss the others would be more time spent than life we all have left.

I have personally been to converters and toured their plants (as we look for alternate facilities to bottle and compound for us if we hit full capacity or are down for repairs etc) that have 50,000 gallon tanks of "typical fuel additives...diesel and gasoline!!" that will bottle 5 pallets of additive brand name A, then switch bottles and make 5 pallets of brand name B, and then change bottles a third time and make brand C.....all using the same 50,000 gallon tank. 6000 additives out there with various names and the same formulas!

When you get down to it, the converters make a base compound cocktail that are single phase materials that address 1 or possibly 2 problems and then cause other ignored consequences or they may not even know that there is interactions with other products.

Customers think that they can just make their own "witches brews" and hope that they will come out ok. This is the danger of using things that they really don't understand.

We were figuring this stuff out in the 1970s. By 1983, we had produced the gasoline formula for leaded fuel cars and later OBD1, OBDII, and Canbus systems.

Really, the ACES IV is a very good well synergized product that has treated millions of gallons of fuel without incident or problem. If you add the ACES II Diesel Formula then it is just over 5 billion gallons of fuel!

It is slowly getting a reputation for quality and performance from around the internet.....with multiple car, truck, and boat followers.

All you really need to know is that the other stuff is either petroleum, acids, alkali, polymers, alcohols or metals. None of which is good for the car long term either in potential damage or just simply not effectual and causing problems with the integrity of the engine oils. Hey Ethanol produces formic acid when hydrated.....isn't that enough problem!

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

 

[BlueHemi80]

Yeah! A reply from the Man itself!

Glad to see you join the thread.

I think we can all agree that your statement very well resume the overall situation.

But just to make it clear, when I talked about doing analysis, it wasn’t about breaking down the competitors’ products to explain the molecular level of things. It was more about helping the average Joes to make an informed choice by doing what you’ve already done elsewhere in the forums: take a competitor’s MSDS (I didn’t even know that acronym a few weeks ago :S) and explain what is hidden in there and why it is bad for cars (or good… it could happen I guess)

For most people, common MSDS are like trying to read a dead language and even among those who could usually find their way through it, most additive related MSDS hide useful information in such a cryptic way that only a few chosen can manage to find it.

Of course I suppose another interesting way to expose that information could be to do the exact opposite and make a post about each common bad ingredients, explain what it is and why it is bad as well as including a list of known offenders.

Again, finding a big chunk of useful information like this in a single thread will add visibility to your products, will help people to understand more what they put in their car and if done properly they won’t have the impression this is done to bash competitors and they will see that all the information that will be provided there can be verified.

--------

By the way, while you are here I would really appreciate, if you had to do it only once, if you could give your opinion (technical or at least personal) about products from Bell Performance. Among them, they got a product, Mix-I-Go, that while I do not think it is superior to ACES IV it does look very similar. Here, from the information I could gather: the product is mostly used at the industrial level (with some success it seems) and is kind of underground among the car enthusiasts, marketing material also put a similar emphasis about being different from the “thousands of all-the-same competitors”, base recipe has been kept secret and improved over the years to meet new requirements. Also various claims make it look like a very good ACES IV-like product (after all it’s their job to make people think it is )

While I was looking for an additive to try, it has come as a close second to ACES IV. I guess I subconsciously hope that you tell me it’s a good thing that I didn’t go Bell’s way while including all the valid reasons a professional of the subject like you could provide.

I won’t mind if you don’t reply to this, but again it would be really appreciated.

 

[BlueHemi80]

*bump*

Why is there no love for BlueHemi80?...

I know someone like 370 HEMI can be quite busy, but I still have faith, I'm not ready to see this thread being buried just yet

Is there anybody else with similar knowledge that could help to fulfill this thread's destiny? Or at the very least offer comments on Bell Performance's product?

 

[370 HEMI]

Yeah! A reply from the Man itself!

Glad to see you join the thread.

I think we can all agree that your statement very well resume the overall situation.

But just to make it clear, when I talked about doing analysis, it wasn’t about breaking down the competitors’ products to explain the molecular level of things. It was more about helping the average Joes to make an informed choice by doing what you’ve already done elsewhere in the forums: take a competitor’s MSDS (I didn’t even know that acronym a few weeks ago :S) and explain what is hidden in there and why it is bad for cars (or good… it could happen I guess)

For most people, common MSDS are like trying to read a dead language and even among those who could usually find their way through it, most additive related MSDS hide useful information in such a cryptic way that only a few chosen can manage to find it.

Of course I suppose another interesting way to expose that information could be to do the exact opposite and make a post about each common bad ingredients, explain what it is and why it is bad as well as including a list of known offenders.

Again, finding a big chunk of useful information like this in a single thread will add visibility to your products, will help people to understand more what they put in their car and if done properly they won’t have the impression this is done to bash competitors and they will see that all the information that will be provided there can be verified.

While that might be interesting in some fashion, it is important to realize that everything....and I mean EVERYTHING out there in terms of fuel additives are single phase cocktails that incorporate the same things. It is like saying well, ABC cake mix has flour, sugar, eggs, and oil. DEF cake mix has flour, eggs, oil, and sugar. GHI has sugar then flour and then eggs but no oil. The thing to understand is that they are all varying degrees of the same ingredients. The point is that we don't want eggs mixed with our flour because neither eggs nor flour are good in our glass of chocolate milk! These off the shelf fuel products don't belong in our fuel!

104+ Octane Booster is a perfect example: $10.99 for up to 20 gallons of fuel. Our ACES IV at retail is $75.95 (Charger Forum people get it for $67.60 or $234.00 per gallon (or $58.50 per quart!!) It treats 192 gallons of fuel. Pretending that 104+ was the same....AND IT IS NOT......you would need 9.6 bottles to treat the same amount of fuel. So $10.99 x 9.6 = $105.51 x 1.0775 (tax) = $113.68 for 192 gallons of fuel. Compare that to ACES IV at $67.60. So 104+ is 59.2 cents per gallon where ours is 35.2 cents per gallon. Now the MSDS Sheet on this product tells it all too:



Proprietary additive - methyl cyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (CH3C5H4)Mn(CO)3 - Manganese....erodes cylinder walls....like jewler's rouge!!!

Petroleum Distillate - Dearomatized kerosine - 64742-47-8 KEROSINE!!!

Hydrotreated Petroleum Oil - 64742-52-5 hydrotreated heavy naphthenic - Napthalene is dry cleaning fluid but heavy type that produces gum and varnish in your cylinders and engine oils.

Don't use any of the additives off the shelf as they will all produce interactions, reactions, and ultimately be much more costly than using ACES IV which we designed to be just exactly what the fuels need....both gasoline and ACES II for diesel.

--------

By the way, while you are here I would really appreciate, if you had to do it only once, if you could give your opinion (technical or at least personal) about products from Bell Performance. Among them, they got a product, Mix-I-Go, that while I do not think it is superior to ACES IV it does look very similar. Here, from the information I could gather: the product is mostly used at the industrial level (with some success it seems) and is kind of underground among the car enthusiasts, marketing material also put a similar emphasis about being different from the “thousands of all-the-same competitors”, base recipe has been kept secret and improved over the years to meet new requirements. Also various claims make it look like a very good ACES IV-like product (after all it’s their job to make people think it is )

While I was looking for an additive to try, it has come as a close second to ACES IV. I guess I subconsciously hope that you tell me it’s a good thing that I didn’t go Bell’s way while including all the valid reasons a professional of the subject like you could provide.

I won’t mind if you don’t reply to this, but again it would be really appreciated.

Again, Mix-I-Go is for 2 stroke and 4 stroke use. The release rates alone in gasoline 4 strokes vs. 2 strokes is completely different. We have ACES IV for 4 stroke and ACES IV-2S for 2 stroke that are different formulas to deal with the oil mix and oil injection in the engines.

92% of the mixture is petroleum solvents or "stoddard solvent"

See Below:
SECTION I - Material Identity
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Part Number/Trade Name MIX-I-GO
National Stock Number 681000N000798
CAGE Code OOO34
Part Number Indicator A
MSDS Number 182896
HAZ Code B


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION II - Manufacturer's Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manufacturer Name BELL LABORATORY INC
Emergency Phone 305-831-5021

MSDS Preparer's Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Date MSDS Prepared/Revised 01JAN85
Date of Technical Review 09OCT81
Active Indicator N

Alternate Vendors
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vendor #5 CAGE BCGHY


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION III - Physical/Chemical Characteristics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NRC License Number NA
Net Propellant Weight (Ammo) NA
Appearance/Odor AMBER COLOR, FREE FROM SEDIMENT, LIGHT ODOR
Boiling Point 318-456F
Vapor Pressure 2
Vapor Density 4.9
Specific Gravity 0.7770
Evaporation Rate 0.1 (BU AC)
Percent Volatiles by Volume 100
Container Pressure Code 4
Temperature Code 8
Product State Code U


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION IV - Fire and Explosion Hazard Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Flash Point Method UNK
Lower Explosion Limit 1.0
Upper Explosion Limit 6.0
Extinguishing Media FOAM, CO*2, DRY CHEMICAL, USE WATER AS COOLING AGENT
Special Fire Fighting Procedures SELF-CNT BRTHIN APPAR W/FULL FACE PIECE IN POS PRESS MODE
Unusual Fire/Explosion Hazards VAPORS ARE HEAVIER THAN AR, MAY MOVE ALONG THE GROUND. REMOVE IGNIT SOURCES. RESIDUE MAY ALSO IGNIT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION V - Reactivity Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stability YES
Stability Conditions to Avoid AVOID HEAT, SPARKS, OPEN FLAME, FIRE
Materials to Avoid AVOID CONTACT WITH STRONG OXIDIZING AGENTS
Hazardous Decomposition Products CO & CO*2 POSS FROM THERMAL DECOMP
Hazardous Polymerization NO


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION VI - Health Hazard Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Route of Entry: Skin N/P
Route of Entry: Ingestion N/P
Route of Entry: Inhalation N/P
Carcinogenity: NTP N/P
Carcinogenity: IARC N/P
Carcinogenity: OSHA N/P
Symptoms of Overexposure EYES: SEV IRRIT,RED,BLURR. SKIN:MOD IRRIT. INHIZ,WEAK,NAUSEA,UNCON,ASPHYX.INGEST:GI IRRIT, VOMIT
Emergency/First Aid Procedures SKIN:WASH W/SOAP&WATER. REMOVE CONTAM CLTHNG, WASH BEFORE REUSE. EYES:FLUSH W/LG AMT OF WATER. GET MD ATTN. INH:REMOVE TO FRESH AIR. GIVE OXYGEN/RESTORE BRTH IF NEC. CALL MD. INGESTOSS CHEM PNEUMONFROM ASPIR. DO NOT INDUCE VOMIT. CALL MD


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION VII - Precautions for Safe Handling and Use
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steps if Material Released/Spilled SM SPILL:ABSORB LIQ ON PAPER, VERMICULITE OR OTHER ABSORBENT & TRANSFER TO HOOD. LG SPILL:ELIM IGNIT SOURCES. PERSONS NOT WEARING PROTEQUIP SHOULD LEAVE AREA. STOP SPILL, DIKE AREA, PUMP LIQ TO SALVAGE TANK. ABSORB REMAIN MATRL, PUT IN CONTAINER
Waste Disposal Method MFR RECM:SM SPILL:ALLOW VOLATILE PORTION TO EVAP IN HOOD. ALLOW VAP TO CLEAR HOOD DUCT WORK. BURN REMAINDER IN IRON PAN. LG SPILL:INCINERATE LIQ. PUT ABSORBED MATRL IN LANDFILL. DISPOSE LAW FED, STATE & LOCAL CODES
Handling and Storage Precautions USE W/ADEQUATE VENTILATION. AVOID PROLONGED OR REPEATED PERSONAL CONTACT
Other Precautions CONTAINERS OF THIS PRODUCT MAY BE HAZARDOUS WHEN EMPTIED. SINCE EMPTIED CONTAINERS RETAIN PRODUCT RESIDUES (VAPOR, LIQUID AND/OR SOLID)ALL HAZARD PRECAUTIONS IN DATA SHEET MUST BE OBSERVED


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION VIII - Control Measures
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Respiratory Protection NIOSH/MSHA APPRVD RESP PROTCTN,SELF-CONT IN POS PRESS MODE, IF NEC
Ventilation SUFFICIEMT MECH & LOCAL EXHST TO MAINTAIN EXPOS BELOW TLV
Protective Gloves NEOPRENE,BUNA-N
Eye Protection CHEM SPLASH GOGGLES
Other Protective Equipment TO PREVENT RPTD/PRLNG SIN CNTCT-IMPERVIOUS CLOTHES, BOOTS
Supplemental Health/Safety Data ADDRESS: 1340 BENNETT DR., LONGWOOD, FLORIDA32750


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION IX - Label Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Protect Eye NO
Protect Skin NO
Protect Respiratory NO
Chronic Indicator UNKNOWN
Contact Code UNKNOWN
Fire Code UNKNOWN
Health Code UNKNOWN
React Code UNKNOWN


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION X - Transportation Data
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Container Quantity 1
Unit of Measure QT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION XI - Site Specific/Reporting Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SECTION XII - Ingredients/Identity Information
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ingredient # 1
Ingredient Name STODDARD SOLVENT CAS Number 8052413
NIOSH Number WJ8925000
Proprietary YES
Percent 92 OSHA PEL 500 PPM
ACGIH TLV 100 PPM; 9293

We don't really have to waste time looking at all the other products that are distillates, polymers, alcohols, acids, alkyli and metals. These are not good for any engine and shouldn't be used.

ACES IV is really.....REALLY all you need.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

 

[BlueHemi80]

Thanks Brian, I won't ever thank you enough and I would feel bad to make you lose more time on the subject.

It seems pretty clear as of now that any of these ingredients* are bad for our beloved cars.

But there is one last things I'd like to see with you which is: why then does Aces IV contains some too?... at least based on that MSDS, which show a petroleum solvent / distillate as the primary ingredient.

Aromatic Petroleum Solvent (CAS# 68477-31-6) (40-70%) primarily used in pesticide; to be fair it is also known as "Catalytic reformer fractionator residue" which sounds way too cool to be a bad thing

Also listed are:

Paraffin wax (CAS# 8002-74-2) (15-40%) Used in plenty of paint and automotive related product

Toluene (CAS# 108-88-3) (<1%) A common solvent, known among car enthusiast as a potent octane booster when used in high concentration (but Toluene being known to be really hard/slow to burn it might lead to problem such as Toluene still burning while going through the exhaust port) Concentration here should not be a problem.

I don't bring that here to prove you wrong or discredit your products or anything, I respect yourself and your knowledge of the subject way too much to go there. The msds could be outdated or I guess solvents/distillates are not all created equals and some might be better than the others.

But just to make everything clear, and without going as far as divulging trade secrets, could you explain how these ingredients can make Aces IV a good product while being bad in others?

I'm only a seeker of truth as you are, I think, and whatever the msds says or what you reply doesn't mean the product doesn't work as advertised as can testify several members of the forums.



*distillates, polymers, alcohols, acids, alkyli and metals

 

[370 HEMI]

Thanks Brian, I won't ever thank you enough and I would feel bad to make you lose more time on the subject.

It seems pretty clear as of now that any of these ingredients* are bad for our beloved cars.

But there is one last things I'd like to see with you which is: why then does Aces IV contains some too?... at least based on that MSDS, which show a petroleum solvent / distillate as the primary ingredient.

Aromatic Petroleum Solvent (CAS# 68477-31-6) (40-70%) primarily used in pesticide; to be fair it is also known as "Catalytic reformer fractionator residue" which sounds way too cool to be a bad thing

Also listed are:

Paraffin wax (CAS# 8002-74-2) (15-40%) Used in plenty of paint and automotive related product

Toluene (CAS# 108-88-3) (<1%) A common solvent, known among car enthusiast as a potent octane booster when used in high concentration (but Toluene being known to be really hard/slow to burn it might lead to problem such as Toluene still burning while going through the exhaust port) Concentration here should not be a problem.

I don't bring that here to prove you wrong or discredit your products or anything, I respect yourself and your knowledge of the subject way too much to go there. The msds could be outdated or I guess solvents/distillates are not all created equals and some might be better than the others.

But just to make everything clear, and without going as far as divulging trade secrets, could you explain how these ingredients can make Aces IV a good product while being bad in others?

I'm only a seeker of truth as you are, I think, and whatever the msds says or what you reply doesn't mean the product doesn't work as advertised as can testify several members of the forums.



*distillates, polymers, alcohols, acids, alkyli and metals

Yes, you did find that old MSDS from 2007 that outlines what we did for Canada for use in the tar sands and pipelines (in Fort MAC area) where you DO need those "distillates" to keep the gasoline from freezing at -45 deg C. We did that formula with not a performance bent like here in the states, but more for the ultimate industrial performance......starting!! LOL. Enviroaces deals with industrial and commercial accounts way up in the cold regions of Canada.

The MSDS you are really looking for is this:



When you are looking for more performance from the fuel, the domestic version is what you are looking for. Good job hunting the other MSDS though. Remember that we have over 400 formulas that we make for different vehicles depending on what we are asked to do. Old carbureted engines, mid 70s cars, before OBD1, then OBD1 and then finally OBDII and Canbus use. We have to make them for different vehicles because the needs change so much....especially with the up to 15% alcohol that is being shoved down our throats! Soon we will have to start putting our ACES IV-A in our tanks!

The best thing I can say to you is to buy some ACES IV and use it and become one of those who really sees what it can do.

As confucius would say.....I read and I forget.....I see and I remember.....I experience and I understand!!:beerchug:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com