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Yup, saw the grand tour Thursday night.
 

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Discussion Starter #4,742
Great start to the season. I kinda wonder how the Demon would have done against the Exorcist in it's street configuration rather than the track set up.
 

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I think the computer and race fuel were fair enough (they said the camaro runs on that high test stuff too), but having to stop to put on the skinnies up front is a bit excessive.
 

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I have a question about the video below. Absolutely awesome driving and vehicle control by the trooper. But, why no siren for so long?

 

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Bobw: A couple of reasons for no siren. Generally, at those speeds, the trooper is driving faster than the siren (no, not faster than sound, but faster than the siren can penetrate a vehicle cabin and get a driver's proper attention.) the general motoring public can be completely irrational and unpredictable when they hear that siren. Some will panic brake right in the lane of travel they're in - Some will pull as far to the right as possible at all costs without looking and cause more of a problem for the trooper. Some folks will even pull right into the path of that fleeing vehicle placing themselves in harms way without their knowledge. They know where that trooper is, but NOT who that trooper is chasing.
 

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Great explanation ColdSteel, and I like the clarification about out-driving the siren. We say that and people often act like we think we're driving faster than sound. No, just faster than the public is able to perceive the siren.

Bobw, I'd also like to add a possible reason why she didn't use the siren for so long. She was just intentionally struck, and then immediately in a high speed pursuit in heavy traffic. It's very possible she simply didn't think of it. She's got a lot of other things on her mind, and the siren may not have been one of them. She's scanning traffic, talking to dispatch and responding units, and trying to keep an eye on the driver for the chance they may bail and/or get out of the car guns blazing.

I also like that she didn't get emotional, and kept her composure. Great driving, with multiple opportunities to PIT him, but she waited for authorization first. I assume that was her department policy since she didn't do it sooner. Once the (I assume) supervisor found out she was intentionally struck he gave her the green light to PIT him, and she got it on the first try. Then doing exactly as she should, she put him into the wall when he tried to drive out of it.

On a side note. Pretty good driving on the Honda's part too. There were a lot of tight spots and he didn't really run into much.
 

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Great driving, with multiple opportunities to PIT him, but she waited for authorization first.
That's just what I was thinking as well. The pursuit could have been over much sooner (safer for everyone), so I was assuming she was following policy to get approval for the PIT. I'm 50-50 on that policy... Obviously it's a dangerous thing to do, causing damage to the police vehicle and at least one other vehicle, all of which can cause harm to the officer and/or suspect and innocents, but on the other hand, she could have done the PIT on that entrance ramp with no other vehicles around (IMO!). Still, it worked out well in the end. :bigthumb:

This ain't Hollywood, those aren't professional stunt drivers, and things don't always go "as planned" when tossing 2-ton vehicles around.
 

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Great explanation ColdSteel, and I like the clarification about out-driving the siren. We say that and people often act like we think we're driving faster than sound. No, just faster than the public is able to perceive the siren.
I get what you guys mean about the siren. People act stupid. I had an incident about a week ago where I was about the third car back from a traffic signal in the left lane in something called a diverging diamond. Ambulance behind us. Figured it was going straight at the light. Nobody moving. It came up behind me. I wound up hanging the left on the offramp and pulling right to get out of it's way. Turns out that it wan't going straight. It was trying to go 74 West. Basically the same direction as I wound up going, so it went past me. Worked out OK except for the two mile round trip that I just committed to. Oh well...
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2324767,-77.9946825,3a,60y,305.03h,77.28t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svhUdvEbsYJMpz8UAKCaVSQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Video of me running the same route in the "Diverging Diamond". Also shows a driver coming head on at me in the wrong lane.

 

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Discussion Starter #4,751 (Edited)
..... I was assuming she was following policy to get approval for the PIT. I'm 50-50 on that policy... Obviously it's a dangerous thing to do, causing damage to the police vehicle and at least one other vehicle, all of which can cause harm to the officer and/or suspect and innocents,.....
Yeah I agree. Some times the conditions are perfect to end it right there. Some officers will do it without prior authorization when they see it's there, while others will adhere to policy and wait for approval to do it. I can't really fault either one. If the unauthorized PIT works you simply explain why you knew it was safer to do it and time didn't allow you to get approval first. However if it doesn't work out you have to try to explain why you didn't follow policy and someone got hurt or something got destroyed. That's a hard sell.
Damage wise, if it's done properly the damage is actually pretty mild. On an ideal PIT, you won't even dent the cars. A few light scratches and that's it. The problem is that if things go sideways it can turn bad fast. Hee hee, see what I did there? Anyway, back to it. If things don't go as planned the end result could be a pretty serious crash. "Intentional contact" (or ramming someone) is considered lethal force, but as I recall it has been determined PIT is not. Probably because it is a precision maneuver rather than brute force. In either case, it's still dangerous, as you noted.
 

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As in the video above, I've often seen a PIT followed up with pushing the side of the suspect's car to block further movement. That second hit would be "intentional ramming," correct?
"In for a penny, in to get pounded." ;)
 

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It usually gets lumped in with the PIT, since it's generally one continuous movement. What she's doing there is more pushing than ramming. Two purposes for doing that. First is obviously to prevent further movement, but if you're good you can prevent the driver side door from opening. The second part prevents the driver from bailing on foot, or trying to get out shooting.

Intentional contact could have been done earlier. If you go back around 2:11 mark, he loops around one of the ramps. To prevent him from getting back on the pike, she could have rammed him directly from behind and pushing him into the grass. She could also have smashed into the side of his car in the hopes of immobilizing his car around that same area. Both of those are forceful and require no finesse. By contrast PIT is a finesse move that is intended to create lateral instability which results in rotation.
 

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Hey, Shots I got a couple quick questions, and I realize that the answers will be for Ohio, but I'd still like to know.

My wife asked me and I really don't know what to tell her, but I bought her a little "zapper" for when she takes her walks. It's a combination flashlight and shocker. I hesitate to call it a taser because it doesn't fire probes with wires, you pretty much have to touch whatever you want to shock. Anyway, she's reading a novel and one of the characters in it said that she would rather carry pepper spray because you can carry it in your pocket without getting arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, like her taser. (???)

So the message being conveyed is that a zapper is classified as a concealed weapon if it is in your pocket, but OK if you carry it in your hand, (open carry), but pepper spray is OK both in or out of your pocket.

The problem I have with all this is, while both of these items are (in my mind) non-lethal deterrents, the pepper spray can be utilized from a distance while the zapper you pretty much have to touch the perp, so which one can be used as a "weapon" more effectively? The pepper spray, in my mind. Yet one can carry it concealed?

She keeps it in her hand while walking anyway because it has a safety strap that goes around her wrist, so if anyone manages to take it from her it pulls a little plug out that disables it so it can't be used against her. And she walks early, before it is light and the flashlight part of it is handy to have. Oh, and she carries pepper spray too.
 

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Hey, Shots I got a couple quick questions, and I realize that the answers will be for Ohio, but I'd still like to know.

My wife asked me and I really don't know what to tell her, but I bought her a little "zapper" for when she takes her walks. It's a combination flashlight and shocker. I hesitate to call it a taser because it doesn't fire probes with wires, you pretty much have to touch whatever you want to shock. Anyway, she's reading a novel and one of the characters in it said that she would rather carry pepper spray because you can carry it in your pocket without getting arrested for carrying a concealed weapon, like her taser. (???)

So the message being conveyed is that a zapper is classified as a concealed weapon if it is in your pocket, but OK if you carry it in your hand, (open carry), but pepper spray is OK both in or out of your pocket.

The problem I have with all this is, while both of these items are (in my mind) non-lethal deterrents, the pepper spray can be utilized from a distance while the zapper you pretty much have to touch the perp, so which one can be used as a "weapon" more effectively? The pepper spray, in my mind. Yet one can carry it concealed?

She keeps it in her hand while walking anyway because it has a safety strap that goes around her wrist, so if anyone manages to take it from her it pulls a little plug out that disables it so it can't be used against her. And she walks early, before it is light and the flashlight part of it is handy to have. Oh, and she carries pepper spray too.
Shots may have more information or different - probably right - opinions on this because he works in the field. As far as stun guns - not Tasers - the little handheld things that make loud noises when a button is pushed, I think they are useless. If I have bad intent, and I come at you, and you have the presense of mind to get the thing up and out and start pushing the button intending to touch me with it, it's not going to happen. I - the bad person - will knock that out of your hand, likely knocking it free because of that cool "safety" disconnect.

I've proven this point a couple of times with friends. Also, in Nebraska, stun guns can be carried concealed - unlike NC where I live - as long as they are not intended to be a "deadly weapon" (not sure of that meaning).

Pepper spray is probably better because you can do what you should be doing... getting away from the situation. If the assailant follows, you can spray at a distance, hopefully having an effect. Even if you can't get away, if it's in your hand, you can make the entire environment around you miserable - maybe for you too - but it's not like with a stun gun trying to push a 1 inch wide area up against someone in a vulnerable spot. Touching arms, legs, etc will be annoying to the assailant, but won't have much of an effect.

If we are talking about walking - like exercise - have you considered maybe getting a dog. I'm serious. A well socialized, decent size dog, with a bit of training will walk with her, pay attention, and be a deterrent for anyone thinking about anything. Or go out in pairs if there's a concern about security. One can operate the pepper spray if necessary.
 

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Just FYI- pepper spray doesn't always work on the bad guy (gal), but it will always work on you. The wind will rarely if ever be in your favor. ;)
 

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Just FYI- pepper spray doesn't always work on the bad guy (gal), but it will always work on you. The wind will rarely if ever be in your favor. <img src="http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
I absolutely agree. Anything you might have for defense is never an absolute. I made a couple of suggestions that might help make that person less of a target. A dog, and additional people. Unless the dog is protection trained, it probably isn’t going to help if something happens, but it’s a variable that someone with bad intent might avoid. Pepper spray might be better than nothing if something goes down, while I can’t really see a Chinese made spark maker helping.
 

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Pepper spray might be better than nothing if something goes down, while I can’t really see a Chinese made spark maker helping.
If you have some doubts about the Chinese sparker, give yourself a quick zap with it...

Actually, don't! There's no such thing as a "quick test" once you zap yourself- the trigger stays on until your own flailing around dislodges it from your grip! >:)
 

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Sounds like the voice of experience here...??? :biggrinjester:

Actually, the sound of it sparking can be intimidating enough to give your attacker some pause while you run away. Hopefully he'll go find a softer target.
 
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