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Wow, I cant get over that pan/filter design, seems like a triumph of the packaging engineer over the technician. 24 freaking bolts? Really?

I do like the drain, but otherwise seems nuts to me.
cost save for the manufacturing process.
 

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cost save for the manufacturing process.
Hard to see how, unless they have a machine that seats and tightens all 24 bolts at once, which they might. Five speed is six fasteners.
 

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Discussion Starter #23
Hard to see how, unless they have a machine that seats and tightens all 24 bolts at once, which they might. Five speed is six fasteners.
I concur. We typically can do the gasket, filter and fluid for $144.58 which is much more cost effective than the filtran and ZF type fluid. ;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

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Hard to see how, unless they have a machine that seats and tightens all 24 bolts at once, which they might. Five speed is six fasteners.
referring to the integrated design.

WRT 24 bolts, I obviously haven't seen their production process, but it wouldn't be unusual to have all bolts driving at one time.

6 fasteners is no way sufficient. That would almost be guaranteed to leak, unless you used one of those magic leak proof fluids ;)
 

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referring to the integrated design.

WRT 24 bolts, I obviously haven't seen their production process, but it wouldn't be unusual to have all bolts driving at one time.

6 fasteners is no way sufficient. That would almost be guaranteed to leak, unless you used one of those magic leak proof fluids ;)
I thought I read somewhere that the 24 bolts are required due to the seal surface deformation properties of a plastic pan vs. the NAG1 metal pan that can get by with fewer attachment points with greater distance between them.
 

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they know the proper bolt spacing to prevent leaks.

Kind of funny, I got involved in a project comparing my companies product to the competitors similar product. Theirs was lighter weight. Part of the difference was the number of attachment bolts and the bolt center distance. Without even looking, I'd bet my companies center distance was a fixed engineering requirement.
 

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referring to the integrated design.

WRT 24 bolts, I obviously haven't seen their production process, but it wouldn't be unusual to have all bolts driving at one time.

6 fasteners is no way sufficient. That would almost be guaranteed to leak, unless you used one of those magic leak proof fluids ;)
You go tell the millions of Mercedes and Chrysler products on the road with the MD designed five speeds how they should start leaking becuase the six bolts holding the pan on wont work. :) Mine hasnt lost a drop in almost 200,000 miles.

 

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You go tell the millions of Mercedes and Chrysler products on the road with the MD designed five speeds how they should start leaking becuase the six bolts holding the pan on wont work. :) Mine hasnt lost a drop in almost 200,000 miles.

Metal pan vs. plastic.

Deformation over distance between fasteners is very different between the two.
 

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I suppose I misunderstood him then. Of course 6 isnt sufficient for plastic, thats why plastic is a stupid choice, IMO. Maybe flange the damn thing with metal. AS a mechanic, I just hate to see my job made harder. That amount of fasteners speaks to me of sheer lazy engineering.
 

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Even with the metal pan, that bolt span is way too big.

Not leaking, more luck than anything else.
 

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Even with the metal pan, that bolt span is way too big.

Not leaking, more luck than anything else.
So millions of vehicles, what must be billions of road miles traveled, and the reason they dont have a rep for leaking is luck? Now, were they through bolts like you find on pans like my GMs, I agree, six might not be enough. But these are not through the pan, they actually hold clips that support the pan, each clip close to 1/2 an inch wide. combine that with that design not piercing the gasket, and the fact the gasket is a 1/2 inch wide piece with four flanges, its a design that works, and not by luck.
 

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Even with the metal pan, that bolt span is way too big.

Not leaking, more luck than anything else.
That can only be concluded knowing the metal thickness, composition, mechanical and thermal loads.

Luck? I find that hard to believe.

I'm quite sure the engineers did the appropriate calculations to understand the deformation across the distance and chose the appropriate fastener spacing to minimize the risk of leaking.

A 1' thick carbon steel metal bar requires fewer fasteners per unit distance to stay within a specified deformation tolerance than a 1/4" one does...and so on infinitum.

Plastic (being para-crystalline rather than crystalline) carries a different set of calculations at a fixed temperature and must include the thermal transitions across the temperature range of the application in the equations because they are far more significant for para-crystalline polymers than crystalline metals.
 

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I know... different standards for different mfg.

WRT to the leaks, I see the JD Power data, it is interesting to see how the consumers rate the product. Like you, mine hasn't leaked a drop, but that doesn't mean others haven't had issues. Leaks piss off US consumers. But you want an interesting stat, it can make it illegal to sell the car in China. Boggles my mind that China's quality stds are so much higher than ours.
 

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I sorta hate consumer reported data. Not knowing how smart that consumer might be, it's hard to validate the data.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
What the engineers at Audi told me was that distortion of the plastic is minimized by the amount of bolts that are used for these transmissions. The gasket is incorporated along with the grommets having a steel surface to clamp to and not just a plastic flange.

Audi has both the 13 bolt and the 24 bolt ZF pans. Because we deal with both of them, we picture the 24 bolt on our instructions and not the 13 bolt configuration although the procedure is the same. Chrysler uses the 13 bolt for the 8 speed where as Audi uses the 24 bolt.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 

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I sorta hate consumer reported data. Not knowing how smart that consumer might be, it's hard to validate the data.
Absolutely... however, when you see trends, especially large ones, a mfg ought not to ignore it.

Fiat/ZF 8 spd trans is showing up with a lot of dissatisfied customers. Fords automatic manual is having a huge impact it's corp quality ratings. 3 month in service begins showing issues like these... if the OEM doesn't pay attention, it leads huge issues.
 

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Absolutely... however, when you see trends, especially large ones, a mfg ought not to ignore it.

Fiat/ZF 8 spd trans is showing up with a lot of dissatisfied customers. Fords automatic manual is having a huge impact it's corp quality ratings. 3 month in service begins showing issues like these... if the OEM doesn't pay attention, it leads huge issues.
Well, depends on the complaints. "Doesnt feel right", like a lot of the *****ing about HAL, I don't care about the opinions of folks who would rather ***** than learn. Are the complaints about it leaking? Or leaving folks stranded? REal mechaincal malfunctions? Or "Whaaa, it's not like my old Camaro!!!!"

While I know a maker needs to be cognizant of how consumers are going to perceive a new tech, that perception isn't necessarily reality. Neon SRT-4s, lots of complaints about the temp gauge at first, folks said it was jumpy. What they didnt know was that it was accurate, not buffered like the last 20 years of gauges, because Detroit thought people didnt like to see gauges moving too much..........
 

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Really, bi#$% is a non-allowed word? Wow. :notallthere:
 

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Really, bi#$% is a non-allowed word? Wow. :notallthere:
Funny thing is that the word "shit" goes through unfiltered. :dunno:
 
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