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Answers: 5.7L Hemi Camshaft Professional Failure Assay

70K views 161 replies 18 participants last post by  GertFrobe 
#1 ·
Back in October, CE9311 posted about the failure of his camshaft and wanted to know what was the cause.

I contacted him and asked him to send us the camshaft and all lifters for an Assay.

An Assay is testing of a metal or ore to determine its ingredients and quality. Basically, we wanted to find out was it a soft camshaft and components or was it a lubricant failure like I believed based on the pictures?

In this case, since we work with many racers and Steve Walsh builds many race engines for our customers, I contacted Steve of Steve's Machine Shop Service and asked him if we sent him the components, could he determine what caused the failures?

Since he builds so many engines for racers and is really independent of any dog in the fight, I figured he could give an unbiased opinion and get us some answers. Was it a soft camshaft? Was it lubricant failure or was it something else? He was also interested in this assay because he does work with police vehicles too for the government and the fact that CE9311 has a pursuit, he was willing to scientifically determine what it was.

We got the camshaft from CE9311 only on the promise to figure what happened, not destroy anything and then get all the parts back to him for sentimental reasons. We agreed and I sent it directly to Steve via Fedex. He did the assay and sent me a letter on the findings along with some pictures.

Well, here is the result. Since it was never posted, I am posting it now for everyone to see.



Steve used a New Age Industries Multi Range Portable Metal Hardness Tester on the camshaft and components.



In multiple place measurements on the camshaft showed a hardness of 56 to 57 Rockwell. This means that Chrysler didn't make a bad or soft part.



Same with the other components.

One thing Steve has said in the past is that many people lie about all kinds of subjects but metal NEVER lies. If it is blue in color then the metal got hot. If it isn't blue then it is not a heat issue and is something else.

He finished the assay and sent the parts back to CE9311.

He sent me these pictures and a letter about his findings. He also reminded me who he is and why he is specifically qualified to render a cogent result.

I talked to him recently and he said that CE9311 now has had time to digest the information and I am allowed to share this with the rest of you.





In the end, it is not parts failure but lubricant failure like we surmised in the beginning. ;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
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#4 ·
So I guess one question that raises is does the factory recommend Pennzoil have the same problems or is it just that most 5w20s just don't hold up? (I'm still using quantum blue until Brian tells me I can't have any more)
 
#6 ·
While the majority of the failures has occurred on the 5.7L (and thus likely under the watch of a typical 5W-20 engine oil), there have been several 6.xL engines that lost the cam as well. And those would have ostensibly been fed a diet of 0w-40 synthetic their entire lives before chewing up the cam. Maybe it's not so much what kind/weight oil that is used but the proper flow to the cam lobes in question? I don't know, just spitballing here...
 
#5 ·
"...the failure was gradual over a long period of time."

This gives the impression that the damage was spread out over multiple OCIs, which lines up with what I had previously envisioned as well. However, I can think of at least one instance of a similar failure (on a Challenger) where it was much more sudden. The owner in question mentioned the damage occurring so quickly that he noticed it was running rough one morning on the way to work, and before he could make it home, it died and wouldn't run again. Now, in his case, I know they ID'd the lifter freezing as the problem - it froze and ate the cam up. Do we know if the same thing occurred here?

The reason I remember that Challenger owner's story over many others I've heard is that I previously believe keeping an eye on thing via UOAs would be sufficient to catch any failure before it got to the failed point. However, the Challenger owner corrected me with his story, as he had been doing exactly that (getting regular UOAs), yet his failed in the middle of an OCI, and so he never had a chance to see it coming.

Just one more data point to add to the story...
 
#15 ·
Not posted? I am sure I retyped relevant info. Thread was about the failure, which he wrote three, maybe four paragraphs about and I condensed into one. I felt no need to re type out his whole autobiography on how he became space shuttle pilot.

If this was oil formula based then every Hemi would face these problems.
If it was MDS issue then why is Cylinder 5 a non MDS cylinder seemingly the culprit?
If this was an idle issue then why are there plenty of Ram, Challenger, and civilian Chargers with same issues and some Pursuit models with 5K idle hours fine?

Steve failed to write about the roller pins, and needle bearings, any reason why some are effected and some are not. (specially how failed lifter bearings showed almost corrosive type wear on them and non failed bearings were fine)and where there may be insight in what he wrote (specifically spring pressure). This was not the in depth I expected. I felt like I was reading another sales pitch for oil. That type of background to flaunt for several paragraphs and not mention some blatant physical attributes seen on the parts is what really disappointed me.

Also point out that Steve's Machine Shop Service has little to no internet front or info on it. One info has two reviews on gogle a 4 year old could write and 2 different address. On Two addresses you can find show nothing in an industrialized area and one or both of them wanna say is way out the country with a house and larger garage (impressive and lots $$ to get 3 phase out here for all the machinery that would be ran). One with the largelegit looking garage isn't the one even listed on the letter front. Every machine shop I have every used past 5 years has reviews, directions, and photos of them. There was a website in construction phase with that same logo oddly around the time you sent me the letter but has since disappeared as well. Odd. And lastly, most importantly I personally felt the way he wrote it is entirely to perfectly a match for your style including use of key words. I may not be a space-shuttle f-22.2 aeronautical expert PHD holder Steven Hawkins second cousin but I have spent many hours in machine shops, racing shops, aircraft maintenance hangers and never hear that kind of verbiage used to describe failure. Even when Oil was involved.

I kept this to myself but seeing that you want to post this as a fact to tell all why they fail from ONE test/experiment I felt I should present my own thoughts. I will not saying anything more on this regardless of any rebuttals. Do as you wish. I will from this point not engage with you any further.
 
#16 ·
I think what the letter was trying to say was that the quality of oil and the lack of 'friction' due to friction modifiers not being present caused the lifter roller assembly not to rotate due to spring pressures. Being that the MDS lifter is deactivated, the roller somehow doesn't get enough pressure to the roller to roll due to the lack of friction from slick oil??? This seems kind of hokey to me. That roller is designed to rotate. It still rides the lobe. There has to be some sort of contact with it to rotate and not stay still, and I'm not sure that 'slick oil with no friction modifiers' would just cause it to just stop spinning. There's a lot of information and holes here. I too suspect a sales pitch.
 
#25 ·
Oh Ritz, I completely agree! Took time to get this whole thing done to try to further knowledge here without any remuneration at all and end up with an outcome that is distasteful yet factual.

The fact that this is happening to street engines running low pressure systems and having this kind of damage is appalling. The fact that it is happening to these engines at all is a travesty especially when it can be prevented.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
#20 ·
Un related questions:
My 2018 has a button where I can see the useful life of the oil.
1.What is the useful oil life point where the oil should be changed?

The windshield sticker mileage and date of oil change (sticker from the dealer) doesn't seem to match,
as my reason for asking this.
------------------------------
2.What is the approximate oil temp that I should have? (another button that can be pushed)

3.What is the approximate oil pressure that I should see from the 3.6 engine with 11,000 miles?

Thanks in advance for the info.
 
#24 · (Edited)
#3 I am a self proclaimed expert in....

If decent oil - QS, PZ, M1, etc change it when it says 0 life or reaches 10k since last change. I get a bit over 8500 miles on mine. There's nothing that actually analyses oil condition. It's based on stuff like speed, idle, temperature. Oil life counter will go down less if you drive 500 miles at 70 MPH, than if you drive 500 miles stop and go. As far as the sticker, it probably says much less. Manual says exactly what I did. Oil change places - dealer or otherwise - like to see you sooner for profit motive.

Those engines typically hover around 200 degrees for "normal" driving highway or around town. Coolant will be close to oil temp, and transmission will usually be around 180 or so during 70 or so weather - all again as long as you are not doing anything stressful. Transmission may be lower at highway speeds.

#3 ... Oil pressure. I lived through learning that FCA - Dodge - Chrysler - doesn't give a crap about owners. Brand new car with a bad oil pump right from the factory. On a 3.6, when cold, oil pressure will be around 80-99 PSI when accelerating. So over about 2500 rpm when cold, you'll see the oil pressure peg out at 99 psi, and then drop to like 60. Two stage oil pump.

When warm - over 155 degrees oil temp - you will see the "sudden drop" rpm coming down where if you exceed that, oil pressure will drop about 30 psi. When fully warmed up, during cinstant speed driving, where you are around 1500 RPM or so, the oil pressure will probably hover around 40 psi. Put it to it, and you'll see the pressure rise, and then drop 30 psi or so at about 4000 rpm.

Simple answer... Fully warmed, normal driving... Around 40 psi. If it never goes below 60 psi, then you have an oil pump issue like mine, but it will throw a CEL also.
 
#23 ·
Lots of forums with the 5.7L Hemi and I have not seen as much discussion or reported failures as on this one. Just saying before everyone thinks there could be a problem. If this was a serious issue with a lot of 5.7L engines the internet would have them documented.
 
#26 ·
I still believe that a lot of the cooling a motor receives is not just from coolant, but from the oil it uses (whatever oil is being used). The cooler the oil, the better it protects and lives. The cooler the oil, the better a motor lives. When I get this new motor rebuilt, I plan on having a good oil cooler installed. These hemis are 'designed' by Mopar to run very hot. Mostly for emission reasons. I think running these motors cooler overall will help. I have never known of any motor running hot for it to be good for it.

The KISS method still is the best method.
 
#30 ·
You are completely correct here! Close to 36% of the heat generated from your engine is taken away by your cooling system and your engine oil combined. 60% of that heat is coolant/water mix and the 40% or about 14.4% of total heat is direct heat into your oil. So efficiency of the coolant is important and efficiency of the oil to evaporate heat while maintaining it's integrity is also important for life of the engine.

It is not that the oil gets hot that is the issue per se but rather what initial temperature the oil starts to breaks down and when does it hit it's thermal limit. The smaller the oil molecule, the faster it hits thermal and viscosity shear limit losing integrity. The larger the molecule the more carrying capacity and the longer it can last between heat cycles without shear.

Oil coolers only do a good job of evaporating the heat from the oil that isn't compromised due to shear. The oil that shears ends up thicker, creates deposits and is like shattered egg shells pumping in the system.

You want to avoid that shear with an oil that has a higher vapor threshold and the lowest NOACK Volatility you can get while still being able to pump at lower temperatures to eliminate start up wear....again why the additives in the oil are your last line of defense! The higher the NOACK the more % of the oil ends up in the PCV system (catch can) and the less is left liquid to return.

Coolant, Oil and oil cooler....not just do you have them but what characteristics they possess which determines life of the unit they are protecting and the coolant/oil itself.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
#28 ·
And another thing. There has been a lot of discussion about roller lifters and oil. That we have to have a special oil to make them live. What about the history of roller lifters in the past? How many failures have they had with chewing up cams? All this oil discussion seems to be another feel good segment... to somehow band-aid a situation over bad parts.

This is absolutely the last time I want to contribute to this oil to fix a lifter problem. It goes absolutely nowhere. Its all hearsay that the oil works. There are probably thousands of hemi motors out there that survive without special oils. Unless if someone can come up with something concrete, other than more hearsay, I'm holding my ground. :D
 
#29 ·
So we have one "expert" (don't know the machine shop guy's credentials other than what he said about himself) saying that it's a lubricant failure. Do we have any "experts" saying it's not a lubricant, but rather a part failure?
 
#31 ·
I'd just like to know where on the internet I can find a lot of cars with these types of failures (Cars with less than 100,000 miles). I looked at three different forums that have the 5.7L and 6.4L and no mention of these failures other than a few cars with a whole lot of miles that were purchased used.
 
#32 · (Edited)
There probably isn't because most people take care of their cars as intended.

Though it would be fun to see the expert engine builders findings rebutted by someone I should think however that any someone involved should at least SEE the failed parts in person and have credentials that rival if not exceed the expert engine builder and instruments that also rival the expert engine builder. To do otherwise would do a disservice to those involved.
 
#35 ·
I saw those, but two of those were bought used, the last is a 6.1L who admits that he drove a long distance on the cheapest gas available and the 6.4L does not give any specifics about why it is in the shop. Just replacing computer, lifters, cam.....

I was looking for 5.7L specific cam and lifter failure that someone had who took care of their car as specified in the owners manual.
 
#36 ·
Allow me to offer my car up as a data point:

According to the service history I see in CarFax for my Pursuit Charger, it had the camshaft and lifters replaced at ~90K miles. I am guessing that is because it experienced the dreaded chewed-up lobe on the camshaft like others have noted. The entry in CarFax doesn't have any more details about it beyond the date of service, place of service., and what was done, so I don't have much else to offer up about how my car's failure might fit into all this unfortunately. The full-detail CarFax report might have more info on it, but I do not have that, so I cannot see it if it does.

As far as the car being taken care prior to the camshaft failure, I can see other service history entries in that CarFax service history which list things like oil changes and other standard maintenance services. But there again, there is little to no detail beyond that in the information I have access to.
 
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#41 · (Edited by Moderator)
What Brian posted being a Chevy engine MANY of the G8 guys experienced with the 08 and 09 cars and was written off as "bad lifters" buy that was only part of the issue as it was also found oil with low zinc and phosphrous levels now mandated by manufacturers and reflected in Dexos oil is another part of the problem as well. Taking out the "slippery" parts of the oil to make catalytic converters last longer because those bits from the oil can clog a cat when the engines experience excessive blow by isn't a good idea. Sacrificing the engine to save a catalytic converter is IMHO absolutely asinine!
 
#43 · (Edited)
I'm speaking solely on the GM engines here as I've experienced this issue with them, could Mopar be the same? When the oil companies switched to this Dexos oil the engines experienced many failures. An "improved" lifter design was come up with and the failure rate dropped. It seemed on the GM engines the problem was in 09 and older engines using the new Dexos oil was a problem. In 09.5 G8's the improved lifters are used and the failure rate dropped to how it used to be pre-Dexos oil.

So I wonder as suggested above would 16 and post Mopars be similar to GM in 09.5? Part failure due to new oil being used in an older engine. Kinda like valve seats when lead was taken out of gasoline! The lifters never would have experienced a failure had part of the oil not been removed.
 
#45 ·
My opinion of this:

I don't give a rat's ass if it's parts or oil causing the problem. Brian's oils certainly seem to keep it from happening one way or another, so that's good enough for me.
 
#48 · (Edited)
Here's the thing, you bought it used right? You have no idea WHAT was used prior to you owning it! THAT is all I was saying. I never ASSUMED anything about you, I posted what I knew. You bought it used and then had a failure. You were given the reason for the failure according to a professional and you dismissed those findings because you didn't like what you heard. Did I miss anything?

Christ sake quite a few of you read EVERYTHING in the most demeaning, hurtful way you possibly can! Knock it off! Some of you sound like butt hurt snowflakes! I NEVER SAID YOU MISTREATED YOUR ENGINE.

As to post 2011 being when failures have been happening that coincidentally is when the oil manufacturers switched

That said I'm not Willy Wonka and I don't sugar coat everything I touch. I never said YOU mistreated your engine but the fact of the matter is you have no idea if they used in your car. Another reason I will not buy a used car.

Damn man! You post LOTS of great information on stuff and have me wanting to get a catch can for my car and I thank you for that. Honestly I wasn't attacking you either.
 
#49 ·
So if others post what they know, they are assuming. If you post what you know its not? I am offering the same antidotes you have. Not sugar coating just calling it. To me sounded like you called me out for not taking care of it I take pride in my skills, workmanship and how well my fleet I work on works. Hence why I took it personal. Problem is, text based discussions are always blown more out of proportion then needed due to lack of context, and body language. What may be a simple discussion face to face sounds like a shouting pissing match online when its not. And even I forget this sometimes.



I have more faith in the State taking care of it then the 15K or so the dealer had it. Which is why I started all fresh fluids when I got it.The tapping did not start til after a fresh oil change (second time) before road trip of 3K miles. I have always owned used vehicles with general good luck. Before the charger I bought another Eagle with 220K miles on it with bad waterpump for $300. After doing a timing belt and general maintenance that car drove for two years (and I honestly beat the snot out of it) and then sold it cheap to friend who needed it and now year later approaching 230K it still runs fine. To me 100K miles is low as that is generally what I am use too. Maybe my first car (93 Eagle) is rare in sense been a dang good car so my perception is 256K miles is nothing and any car specially modern ones should easily obtain it.
 
#50 ·
Are you talking about an Eagle as in an Eagle Talon? Those were sweet back in the day! If not, then I'm an idiot!


I'll go semi off topic here, still relevant to the thread however. All of these cam and lifter failure threads got me worried like a little school girl. I have a 2013 Charger SRT8 SB with 100,753 miles. Runs like a charm. Always do oil changes with MB1 and MB1 filter on schedule, just had plugs done, as well as transmission fluid and gear fluid and PCV valve. I've ran Brian's Aces IV for I'd say about the last 800 or so miles. Have been running Top Tier for a while as well. I'd say I take very good care of it. Bought it with 50k miles 3 years ago from an old guy who used the dealer, but who knows specifically what was used.

Moving on, how common of an issue is this? I see more issues with the Ram guys than anything, and really only a few guys with 392 Challengers, a couple with 5.7s, and I believe I only saw a single thread about a 392 Charger that needed a cam and lifter replacement and I believe that was a 2016 with super low miles. I see comments in the Challenger thread I believe saying that with a 6.4L MDS it's not an if, but when, however there doesn't seem to be an over abundance of anyone with issues.


Anyway, I've been looking for an upgrade Hellcat for probably close to a year, but there really isn't much in my area and I'm pretty picky so it will take some time. However, since my 392 has been so great I've kind of backed off a little and decided to go with the "why ruin a good thing?" and thought about maybe keeping it another 2 years until the 2021s come out and see what my options are. The only way I'd get a 2015-2020 at this point is for the 6.2L because as much as I love the new look (that is now it's it's 5th model year, geesh) I can't justify going to another 392. However, these few threads got me thinking I've got a ticking time bomb on my hands with the lifters and what not, but after browsing around a bit it doesn't seem to be anything more than a handful of people.
 
#51 ·
Like Steve Walsh said, the plastic deformation happened over time and it was not an all at once catastrophic failure. Our customers don't want to play Russian Roulette with their engines and have us do a 7.5w40 HP Competition Formula QB Racing Engine Oil and a QB High Flow Black Oil Filter in combination with the ACES IV. With that material we do at least 12,000 miles between changes. ;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
#55 ·
Hey, it's me again. I know I said I didn't want to participate in one of these 'oil' conversations. But, I thought I'd share some pics. I'm doing a timing chain (176k miles on it) on my KIA Soul (yeah, I know it's not Dodge related), and I was amazed at how well the cams looked on this motor. I used no special oil other than Mobil 1 full synthetic, changed every 5,000 miles.
 

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#56 ·
While it is good to see the inside of the engine, you are looking at an overhead camshaft engine that functions apples and bananas different. In the block camshafts have deflection issues that OHC engines do not have. We were talking specifically about in the block camshafts and the issues that they are having.

As I have posted before, my wife's Avenger 3.6L Pentastar's last oil change was 20,018 miles on 1 change (with 116,600 miles on it) and it looks like this:



Remember that a case can be made that overhead-valve engines produce more power per mass and more power per physical space.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
#58 ·
What I am saying is that there are different stresses on an in the block camshaft engine compared to an overhead camshaft engine. It doesn't mean that there aren't issues with them as well, just not as much with the camshafts like OHV. Stop trying to put words in my mouth I didn't say.

Let me ask you a question, why do you cling to the corporate giants and continue to support them financially when they could give a flying fig about you and your car! They don't even know you exist! Basically you are a wallet with legs as far as they are concerned and nothing more!

Why wouldn't you support a better product from a smaller company like ours? Many innovative technologies that are far better than present common technologies go to the grave with their inventors because people continue to support a lesser technology but accepted by the masses! :serious:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
#60 · (Edited)
I like Mobil cause their product has worked in my 3.3V6 for 148,000 miles 16 years I have owned it and the good oil reports I got back. (Along with Lucas)

I like using Mobil for the 100s of thousands (if not millions) of folks who run it daily with no issues since it's introduction in 1974. (that being the full Syn deal)


Not to mention in 1989 they took a BMW 325i and using Mobil 1 oil ran it 24/7 for four years for an equivalent of millions miles, and once taken apart showed no major damage.


Here are some more highlights to read.


https://mobiloil.com/en/article/why...bil-difference/brand-heritage-mobil-1-history


Does Mobil 1 care about my vehicle alone. No, not really. Do I care if Mobil's shares drop on one sunny day? No, not really. Kind a mutual thing really.






The biggest difference, is I am here to learn about mods, and see other peoples cars/projects. Not sale oil/additives.











Some are.
 
#62 ·
You are familiar of course that the oil specifications have changed constantly since 1974!

The 1989 BMW that they did the evaluation on was using a product that is in a museum today from a formulate standpoint and is not available to you or anyone else and hasn't been for almost 18 years!

API-SN has been out since October of 2010 and on the shelves since mid 2011. Anything run before that time is irrelevant! SN is when we started to see engine failures using that formula.

Our 3.8L Grand Caravan SXT just hit 333,333 today averaging just over 14,000 miles per change and all original. This has been done in this unit for 14 years!



If we do the numbers, you and others would find that our materials are at least the same price and most likely less than what you and others are paying now for a material that is like skim milk in viscosity and additive packages.


333,333 div by 14,000 = 23.80 changes x 5 quarts = 119.04 quarts div by 4 = 29.76 gallons of oil and 23 oil filters in the landfills.

333,333 div by 5,000 = 66.66 changes x 5 quarts = 333.33 quarts div by 4 = 83.33 gallons of oil and 66 oil filters in the land fill.

333.33 - 119.04 = 214.29 quarts div by 4 = 53 gallons of oil not used if you used QB and 43 oil filters not in the landfill.

12.95 per quart qb x 5 = 64.75 + free oil filter = 64.75 div by 14 = $4.625 per 1000 miles of driving. That means 5000 miles would be $4.625 x 5 = $23.13 per 5k miles.

Not expensive and much better quality!:serious:

Oh, and about the forums......consequence of a free society and a free forum that we help pay for!

Regards,

Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
Forum Vendor for 9 years!
 
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