Charger Forums banner

Is the Muscle Car over?

3K views 18 replies 14 participants last post by  daveR/T 
#1 ·
Just found this on Yahoo today and thought I would pose the question.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/muscle-car-over-145900463.html


Well, that was fun. Five decades of stonking American horsepower have come to an end.
Bloomberg's Jing Cao has the story:

Ford Motor Co.’s Mustang has pulled ahead of its perennial rival, GM’s Chevrolet Camaro, in part by offering a smaller engine that’s turbocharged to satisfy the need for speed and threatens to send the V-8 to the boneyard.

...

The four-cylinder option contributed to the surge in Mustang deliveries, according to a Bloomberg Intelligence report released Thursday. Consumers prefer the smaller engine because the turbo technology boosts both horsepower and fuel efficiency, said Kevin Tynan, a Bloomberg Intelligence analyst.

“The landscape is really changing,” he said in an interview. “The younger car culture doesn’t need big V-8s anymore. This is the way we’re going to make horsepower in the future.”

There used to be a big debate about whether smaller, 6-cylinder engines disqualified Stangs and Camaros that had those motors from consideration as muscle cars. Sure, the V8 versions made the cut. But the V6s were for poseurs.

The advent of widespread turbocharging in the auto industry has changed that. Even turbo fours can serve up respectable horsepower. Who cares what you have under the hood?

There's been some talk lately that muscle cars are turning into sports cars. Business Insider's Ben Zhang made this case in his review of the 2015 Mustang GT (he had the old-school 5.0-liter V8 version, but the car has received a massive update to the way it handles, a big departure from previous generations). Muscle cars are all-American and, for their history, were supposed to get their patriotic power from big, loud V8s.


Sports cars, meanwhile, have more of a European lineage. As does turbocharging.

Younger folks don't seem to give a hoot about this distinction. A Mustang or Camaro is a fast fun car in the same way a Porsche is. For the muscle-car diehards, this brand of thinking is heresy. Give me a big V8 or give me death!

Unfortunately, the whole V8 premise — and the premise of the large-displacement, naturally aspirated engine generally — is becoming increasingly indefensible. The future belongs to fuel economy. So if you want a "real" muscle car in the 2020s, you may have to buy one used.

Update: Some have noted that the muscle car lives on in the form of Dodge vehicles packing V8 Hellcat Hemi power and obnoxious levels of horsepower. Fair enough. But the whole Hemi thing strikes me as the smallest of the Detroit Big Three protesting too much against the decline of muscle. Is a 707-horsepower Dodge Challenger a muscle car? Or an over-muscled car? It's more like a supercar than a muscle car, really.

I personally hope it isn't but with 37.8 mpg by 2016 for cars and combined at 34.1, it may really become harder and harder to have the V8 and Hellcat type power. I know that typically the high end cars are very few in number but the Hellcat has even surprised Chrysler or FCA.

For me, I have my V8s and have no desire to get rid of either of them. CAFE be damned! It looks like 1972 and 1985 are coming back around again!

Regards,
Brian
 
See less See more
#3 ·
I think car culture is changing. Pressures to get more per gallon are forcing the tech to support high HP to reasonable mpg.

Ultimately cars need to get lighter and smaller to meet the 50mpg target of the future. Will it happen? Sure, driverless cars are the main agent for this.

Does that mean a niche won't form to meet the demands of someone like me who buys a big v8 for the pure joy and doesn't care about MPG? You bet.

Dodge appears to be carving that niche out. With their small volumes I don't think anyone need be concerned.

Driverless cars will be able to be powered by any motor because the quality of the ride will be based on how little involvement and how smooth it is.

In the 70s oil crisis we all thought the years to follow would be the death of large motors. Some tried to make it work but ultimately even the mustang dropped its horrible 4 and now there are far more powerful.

Muscle car won't die. The HC is a super sedan, so is likely the regular 392.

The muscle car of old which was big motor, small brakes and handling to scare you in a large heavy car is done. Now we are trying to give the muscle car fan some handling.
 
#4 ·
The hellcat is not a "supercar", anyone who states that is not looking at anything north of $200k.

This argument will always be around.

I think this article misses the point that the "brand" that makes charger/challenger/mustang appealing that people (the masses) are ok opting for less displacement engines is because of the halo effect that high displacement engines have on the brand. Hellcat has halo brand equity over ALL of dodge's products that's why it was such an amazing move by Dodge. The Viper USED to be this...and the latest generation failed to carry of this positioning as the most outrageous muscle car...and instead went to things like "power to weight ratio" which to this market, doesn't care about. The Viper should have come out with 800hp - then they would not have had to discount it to try and move volume.
 
#12 ·
The hellcat is not a "supercar", anyone who states that is not looking at anything north of $200k.
By who's definition? Yours?

I don't hear the term "supercar" much anymore, but years ago during their time the Toyota Supra, Nissan 300ZX, Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4, and a few others were considered "supercars" by pretty much every auto magazine. Probably because they were easily modifiable to beat those $200k cars that you speak of.
 
#7 ·
'Over-muscled' haha no such thing. The Hellcat is going to be one of those collector's cars 20-30 years from now. Wish I could afford one, I'd hang on to it.
 
#8 ·
I read this the other day... all I could think about is the hellcat. How can you see the death of the muscle car coming any time soon when a 707 hp beast just got released.
 
#9 ·
I'll also add that the article could have been better written, go the impression a Mustang fanboy was writing it. Nothing wrong with the Mustangs, just came off biased to me. But the general notion I can agree with, probably be harder for me to find a V8 in my 40's when I reach that point in my life, hopefully Dodge will still offer them to people that want them when that time comes. They've been able to do a lot with turbo or even supercharging smaller engines though. I'd still want a V8 later on down the road for a fun weekend car, but wouldn't mind having a supercharged V6 as my DD.
 
#10 ·
This seems to happen every few years and will continue to happen. In any case, the V8 won't be going anywhere any time soon. It's sales numbers might drop but they will make them even more fuel efficient and they will make a comeback. As for me, no amount of MPGs will replace the sounds I hear when I mash the gas on a V8. I'm happy with the HEMI and it's not going anywhere.
 
#11 ·
I'm never giving up my V8's. Not saying I wouldn't be interested in a turbo charged Pent V6, but not if I could only have one car. The sound and feel are not the same. I wish we (USA) would let the automotive business be market driven and not government regulations driven.
 
#13 ·
True Muscle Cars aren't going away, they will just become rarer as the CAFE standards put more pressure on automakers to bring up the Fleet MPG averages.

Has it occurred to anyone that the reason for the SP, SRT and HC orders being suspended for 2015 is because that if they sell too many of them they will fail to meet the CAFE standards for the year? They have reached the limit until more of the higher MPG models sell.

Manufactures will still make muscle cars (they are HALO cars for the line and help sell the rest of the models, Why do you think Ford bothered to invest in the GT?)...but with increased pressure from the regulations, they simply can't make as many.

The end result is that real muscle cars become rarer and more expensive.
 
#14 ·
... Has it occurred to anyone that the reason for the SP, SRT and HC orders being suspended for 2015 is because that if they sell too many of them they will fail to meet the CAFE standards for the year? They have reached the limit until more of the higher MPG models sell....
Don't wait around to buy the car you want, order it as early as possible.
 
#15 · (Edited)
It does make sense what daddy is saying. It seems it's not only the SP, SRTs and Hellcats but also the RTs. Ive only found a handful of them around. Most dealers here only have 1 or 2 on the lots if that. Since the RTs gas mpg is almost identical to the SP and SRT it would support the restricted production numbers.

Most of us have read the articles about the Pentastar possible getting twin turbo. I'm just wondering what gas savings there would be over a 5.7l. Maybe at best a few miles per gallon.

I'm more then curious if FCA has something new to add to the Charger/Challenger lineup in 2016 with the new Cafe standards starting to kick in.

Hell, They were turbo charging everything back in the 80s. Omnis, Chargers even Lebarons.

And yes I agree that the past is an indictor of the future.
 
#18 · (Edited)
The author of that Article seems very biased from the start against American cars with V8's to me.....

This seems to be a cyclical event. Every decade or so we hear the talking heads or newspapers drone on about peak oil and conservation and how over consumption will end the American lifestyle and quality of life.

I call BS, every year they claim peak oil or that it is a finite resource a new source opens up, typically by means of technology. Two friends of mine that I went to school with are now working at UT, they are working with genetic modification of Algae to make oil that way, according to them that will usher in a new era of low energy prices and we would no longer need to be reliant on other countries that don't have our interests in mind. According to them the only reason it's not currently feasible and why they are investigating Genetic Modification is to disable the Genetic "Off" Switch so the algae continues to produce constantly with sufficient Food and Light.

Here's a few links about it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christo...ists-turn-algae-into-petroleum-in-30-minutes/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/can-algae-feed-the-world-and-fuel-the-planet/


Here's a few quotes about Peak oil borrowed from - http://rayharvey.org/index.php/2010/01/peak-oil/

“I take this opportunity to express my opinion in the strongest terms, that the amazing exhibition of oil which has characterized the last twenty, and will probably characterize the next ten or twenty years, is nevertheless, not only geologically but historically, a temporary and vanishing phenomenon – one which young men will live to see come to its natural end” (1886, J.P. Lesley, state geologist of Pennsylvania).

“There is little or no chance for more oil in California” (1886, U.S. Geological Survey).

“There is little or no chance for more oil in Kansas and Texas” (1891, U.S. Geological Survey).

“Total future production limit of 5.7 billion barrels of oil, perhaps a ten-year supply” (1914, U.S. Bureau of Mines).

“Reserves to last only thirteen years” (1939, Department of the Interior).

“Reserves to last thirteen years” (1951, Department of the Interior, Oil and Gas Division).

“We could use up all of the proven reserves of oil in the entire world by the end of the next decade” (President Jimmy Carter speaking in 1978 to the entire world).

“At the present rate of use, it is estimated that coal reserves will last 200 more years. Petroleum may run out in 20 to 30 years, and natural gas may last only another 70 years” (Ralph M. Feather, Merrill textbook Science Connections Annotated Teacher’s Version, 1990, p. 493).

“At the current rate of consumption, some scientists estimate that the world’s known supplies of oil … will be used up within your lifetime” (1993, The United States and its People).

“The supply of fossil fuels is being used up at an alarming rate. Governments must help save our fossil fuel supply by passing laws limiting their use” (Merrill/Glenco textbook, Biology, An Everyday Experience, 1992).

Last quote about Peak Oil and Doomsday Theories: “No matter how closely it is defined, the physical quantity of a resource in the earth is not fully known at any time, because resources are sought and found only as they are needed. Even if the quantities of a particular resource were exactly known, such measurements would not be meaningful, because humans have a near-limitless capacity for developing additional ways to meet our needs: developing fiber optics, for instance, instead of copper wire …” (Julian Simon, The Ultimate Resource 2.)
 
#19 ·
Ford Motor Co.’s Mustang has pulled ahead of its perennial rival, GM’s Chevrolet Camaro, in part by offering a smaller engine that’s turbocharged to satisfy the need for speed and threatens to send the V-8 to the boneyard
/QUOTE]
Mustangs and Which would be why the gt350 has a flatplane 5.2 liter v8 right. The guy who wrote the original article doesn't know what hes talking about.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top