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180* T-STAT Question

6K views 29 replies 9 participants last post by  370 HEMI 
#1 ·
I am running the intune 91 Octane Tune with the stock T-Stat. I have my fan settings set to stock. I'm wondering if I am missing something performance wise by not running the 180* stat. Does the intune perform better with the lower temp thermostat? I'm just looking to get the best bang for my buck performance wise. I'm honestly a little dissapointed in the "performance gain" from the tune. Just wondering what I should do next. I'm open to any inexpensive/easy mods or suggestions. Not looking to break the bank, this is my daily driver.
 
#2 ·
Unless the ECM is tuned to look for the 180 degrees, all you will end up doing is fattening up your fuel trim and use more fuel while carboning up the motor and washing fuel into your oil.

Since these engines are pretty efficient to begin with, a tune is not going to give you that much more. To really get more you need to have a change in how the fuel burns and scavenge whatever power is being robbed from the engine internally.

If it was my car, I would keep the stock stat and start using ACES IV in the fuel. It causes the fuel to burn within the cylinder more efficiently and give you real power increases as it takes more of the fuel as work and less of it as wasted heat. Typical 5.7L Hemi engines see about 12 hp increase and more throttle response while getting better fuel economy too!

Also consider doing a QuantumBlue Custom Blend for your engine oil. Just did a 5.7L Hemi RAM 1500 4x4 2011 truck with ACES IV, oil and filter. The truck went from 13 mpg to 16.5 mpg and more power too. Fuel and oil make much more difference than tunes alone. :beerchug:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#5 ·
The physics works out this way.....the most efficient burn produces the most power and torque.....period. The most determiner of fuel trim is the MAP or Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor. Next most determiner of fuel trim is ECT or engine coolant temperature.

More fuel does not mean more power. Liquid fuel doesn't burn only vaporous fuel burns. So we are back to the most efficient burn to get the most power and telling the engine that it is cold only makes the engine want to put in more fuel to warm it up.

The ACES IV is a multiple phase designed product from us that has a significant detergent as the fuel we burn leaves residues. So getting it clean and keeping it clean is really important.

It also contains an ignition modifier compound that allows the fuel to burn more efficiently and with a different air fuel ratio as we introduce hydrogen to the burn cycle. Remember that a hydrocarbon/hydrogen reaction has a flame speed of 5000 ft per second where as a typical oxygen/hydrocarbon reaction is 25 to 75 ft per second. Produces a power effect by utilizing the fuel more efficiently.

Third thing is it produces a lubricant technology for compression rings, valve stems and guides while cushioning the valve seat and face. Quieting down the upper cylinders......hemi tick etc. here.

Basically you don't have to lose any fuel economy. However you gain better running, more power, more torque and fuel economy increases too along with longevity of the fuel system pump, injectors and upper cylinders!:beerchug:

1 oz per 6 gallons of fuel or 3.5 oz per 19.2 gallon tank initially and then treat the fuel you add only after that.

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#4 ·
There was a night and day difference in engine responsiveness after doing the 180* thermo and 93 octane trinity tune with my SRT. As far as fuel consumption goes, it will increase slightly as to be expected. That being said, however, in my last engine oil analysis I had 0 fuel dilution in the oil after 6,500 miles.
 
#7 ·
It is like driving around with the choke on. Review the speed density system and how it works:

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119766

ECT = Engine Coolant Temperature which is the second biggest modifier of pulse width (length the injector sprays) after the MAP. If the engine is cold, fuel will not atomize as easily (see summer vs winter fuel post) so the PCM will add extra fuel depending on the value from the ECT. This is where the ignition improver of the ACES IV works well to get the fuel molecularly balanced to atomize and ignite quicker in cold weather.

If the engine is hot, of course fuel volume will be altered accordingly. If your ECT signal is ever lost, the PCM will substitute a preset value and the limp in mode would be triggered.

If the ECT value from the PCM is not reached (203 deg F), the PCM thinks that the engine is cold and will continue to add more fuel to warm it up continually but with the colder stat it never will get where the PCM thinks it should be. This is where you get more fuel, more carbon and lower economy!

So if you have a tuner (richens up the fuel mixture) and then a 180 t-stat (richens up the fuel mixture) then a tune with more fuel trim, you are going to get more fuel into the oil. With ACES IV, you can back off the fuel trim as the lubricity created by burning it in the cylinder supplants the tuner wanting a portion of the fuel to cool the heads. You now have lubricity doing that instead!

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#9 ·
Every sample of oil that I have seen with a 180 t-stat (and there have been hundreds of them that I have reviewed) where the PCM is not reprogrammed to look for 180 degrees.......has more fuel % by volume in the oil than the stock stat oil changes do. If the tuner person (not canned tunes) adjusts what the PCM is looking for then you are fine with the 180. If stock 203 PCM Value and a canned tune with 180 t-stat...then more fuel in the oil and less fuel economy.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#10 ·
When I bought my intune and loaded the 91 canned tune, the fan settings were lower than the default (stock) fan settings. I may be way off here but to me this implies that canned tunes should be run with the cooler t-stat. Do we know without a doubt the canned tunes aren't programmed to look for 180 degrees? There are a lot of vendors that sell the tuner and the jet 180 as a pair. Poking around the forums for severals years this I've always seen the two paired, and usally one of a few highly reccomened mods. I'm certainly no expert, just trying to put all of this information together and make the best decision for the longevity and performance of my vehicle.
 
#11 ·
I just spent a half hour on the phone with Diablo in Florida discussing the canned tunes vs the custom CMR type tunes.

They verified to me that in a canned tune with any of their units.....Predator, Trinity, and Intune, that the 203 degrees that the PCM is looking for is NOT changed and will continue to look for 203. It will therefore richen up the fuel mixture to get the engine to 203.....which it never will with the 180 T-stat.

Their statement to me from Diablo was that turning on the temperatures of the fans 20 degrees lower will make the car run acceptable but will not change that need. Only when a custom tune is applied to the vehicle can the programmer change the need for the 203 to 180. So my statement holds here.

I knew this was the case before I called them because of the oil samples but I wanted to make sure that we were being accurate as of today.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#12 ·
So I still don't understand why the O2 sensor feedback doesn't keep the car from running rich. Isn't that what they are supposed to be doing (except at WOT)? Once the engine gets slightly warm (say about 140 degrees), the system goes into Closed Loop mode and starts using the O2 sensor feedback to maintain an optimal A/F ratio. Wouldn't that keep the engine from running rich?
 
#14 · (Edited)
If you read the entire speed density system information that I put up, it is from Chrysler. This is how their system works. They designed it and built how it works. It is looking for 203 degrees. For emissions or whatever but it is 203 and not 140! If the engine doesn't go to the proper temperature the engine thinks it is still cold and will continue to try and warm it up and therefore will spray more fuel!

I cannot tell you how many people I have talked to that go for emissions and find that their system is not ready to do emissions even though they have been driving and idling just waiting for their OBDII emissions test.

It isn't ready because it is still in open loop using a modified signal and not the correct closed loop signals.

For more reference on this:

http://www.myazcar.com/pdf/OBD_not_ready.pdf

"I have driven the “drive cycle” repeatedly and my system still won’t set to
“ready”: Your vehicle may have an existing problem which prevents the system from resetting. Several problems can cause this to happen, for example: If the vehicle is not running at the correct operating temperature, either to cold or to hot (incorrect or bad thermostat, cooling fans on all the time or not working at all, other cooling system problems) the system will not run. "

I am really not making this stuff up!:serious:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#18 ·
Sorry but your info above isn't relevant here because the car isn't having an emissions issue. Maybe we all need a basic lesson in open loop vs. closed loop. See the attached video link and watch the presentation after his intro talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG_Xc1nP9aI

As I mentioned, the 140 degrees (or there about) is the preset temp the engine must meet to got into closed loop. The preset is NOT the 203 operating temp. If the engine doesn't reach 170 degrees after 20 minutes of driving then the infamous P0123 code get thrown but that is another issue. Once the O2 sensors are heated by their internal heaters, they come online and give valid data to the PCM. That only takes a few minutes tops in a cold engine. Hook up a good scan tool that indicates open loop and closed loop conditions and watch the mode change shortly after a cold engine is started. In the video, the tech mentions 130 degrees as the preset temp that allows closed loop to occur once the O2 sensors are also heated up. Once in closed loop, the A/F ration is held nearly constant at 14.7:1. Enjoy.
 
#22 ·
Yes,

We ship to Canada every other day as we have a large following there.

If you PM me your address info we can get you a quote. :bigthumb:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#24 ·
I ran a 170 T-Stat in my previous Daytona and saw no adverse effects.

I'm now running a 180 T-Stat in my R/T, and aside from slightly lower gas mileage (which I attribute more to my heavier foot) I haven't had any issues. Then again, I also haven't seen any improvements. There's a lot of talk about heat soak in the V8 engines above 190F, but I'd think that with proper maintenance and care, the car shouldn't go that far away from the 203F the engine should generally be at (aside from stop and go traffic and city driving in the summer).
 
#25 ·
Dave,

Have you done any oil analysis and looked at the amount of soot/solids in the oil? That would be an adverse effect.

Putting in more fuel than the car needs will wipe out your detergents/dispersants quickly and remember they don't put hardly any of them in the oils today to begin with. 10ppm magnesium is like wet tissue paper for the sole of your running shoe.

If you don't have to have it then don't......especially if you have not seen any benefit! ALL of the customers that we have that I suggested to go back to the factory temp T-stat who do not have a custom tune have picked up performance and 2-3 mpg too. It just took a tank of fuel typically.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
#26 ·
O2 sensors in these cars is not a wideband. They are either there or not.

Lots of people like the 180° stat. I ran one for awhile, but got tired of throwing a code in the winter time.

You don't need a "custom" tune for the fans with the diablo, anybody can change the fan settings to take advantage of the lower stat. Higher temp is mostly for cat efficiency, nothing else.

If I were to go back to a lower temp stat, I'd probably go to the 185 or 190. Now that I'm towing a heavy trailer with the charger, I have to be concerned with pushing coolant through the radiator too quickly.
 
#27 ·
My car even with the T-Stat runs at a steady 188F-192F on a regular basis, even highway driving. I guess that's why I haven't paid too much mind to it. It's not low enough to give me issues, but high enough to where it's close to stock. I do plan to do an oil analysis in the coming months though.
 
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