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Is synthetic oil required for 2012 charger SE?

49K views 18 replies 10 participants last post by  370 HEMI 
#1 ·
Is synthetic oil required for the 2012 charger SE? I checked the manual and it says you may use synthetic oil only if quality requirements are met. But no where does it say it is recommended or required. I ask because my wife took my charger for an oil change while I was at work and the tech said he could only put in full synthetic.


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#2 ·
The answer is no. The SRT 8 is the only one that requires synthetic oil. That being said synthetic oil is better for the life of the engine but as long as you change out the conventional oil every 3,000 it will do just fine. Sounds like your local shop either looked up the wrong engine or ripped you off. Do you know what weight synthetic they put in it?
 
#3 · (Edited)
The answer is no. The SRT 8 is the only one that requires synthetic oil. That being said synthetic oil is better for the life of the engine but as long as you change out the conventional oil every 3,000 it will do just fine.
Actually, the service interval on the SE is listed at 8K on conventional. The cheap asses I just bought my car from didn't even change the oil before selling it so I'm up for a change as well. Since I'm not an aggressive driver I'll likely run with the recommended 5W-30 conventional and change out at something like 6K.

From what I can tell, it seems like Dodge recommends Pennzoil for the Pentastar but I'm sure any oil that meets the ISLAC and API specs should be fine. I'm just not sure I want to pony up for synthetic on a non high-performance engine.

Personally I think our friend above was ripped off since it's all too common these days.

TLDR: Hothouse is absolutely correct. It won't hurt as long as it's the right weight (5W-30) but it isn't required.

P.S. That's a beautiful ride hothouse.
 
#4 ·
P.S. That's a beautiful ride hothouse.
Why thank you sir :bowdown:! Thanks for the heads up on the 8,000k change on the conventional oil. I have been using synthetic for soooo long in all my vehicles I didn't know the change interval had went up.
 
#5 · (Edited)
The problem with our society today is that we regularly ruin words and their meaning! We use the word "Synthetic" as a type when it is really a characteristic! We use the word Kleenex for facial tissues, but not all tissues are really made by Kleenex.

We use Synthetic to describe Group IV Poly Alpha Olefin oils....and now they even use the words "Full Synthetic" instead of Para-synthetic.

What people don't know or realize is that what you put in your car based on what it is made of does really matter. Dodge has come up with the 8k mile numbers for the Pentastar for cost of ownership numbers and not for "doing the best" for the engine!

I have seen samples of even 5k mile oil in the Pentastar and there is a lot more wear in it than anyone here would want.....if they really care about their car lasting longer than the warranty! This is why Mopar puts a 5 year or 100k mile warranty. Most people will hit the 5 years before the 100k! Average driving is 12-15k miles per year. 12 x 5 = 60k 15x 5 = 75k. Warranty done......3-5 more year needed to use it!

To understand what your question really means, I have put the differences together for your review. Since I manufacture oils for industry as well as racing.....and regular street cars, understanding the differences are important!


Off the shelf solvent refined oil - also known as "Conventional Oil" is mineral based with various molecule sizes and extremely reactive to heat. Reactive up to 35% by volume. Smaller molecules burn up and produce varnish. Larger molecules make oil thicker.....20 turns to 30, 30 turns to 40 etc. Great on seals and maintains additive packages. Pumpability, wearability, and oxidation stability are marginal. Need to change quickly...2,500 to 3,000 miles. Produces more wear. In a 6 quart system like the Pentastar, over 2 quarts can end up in the catch can (if you have one) and mainly out the exhaust. They are like Valvoline, Castrol, Wolfs Head, Quaker State etc. This is the oil that is known to sludge up in engines.

Why does engine oil break down, combine with contaminants, and form sludge deposits? Chemistry teaches that engine oil is unstable and decomposes in the presence of oxygen at high temperature and the % of reactivity due to base stock componentry. The process, called oxidation, occurs after exposure to normal high operating conditions for extended periods of time and is accelerated by exposure to severe operating conditions or to excessively high temperatures. Remember that our engines run at 200 to 240 degrees for emission reasons. Conventional Solvent Refined oils do not do well in these conditions!

During oxidation (which is why oxidation stability is so important in the manufacture of your oil), the chemical bonds that define the oil molecules are broken, and some of the reactive products accumulate and interact to form a highly viscous complex mixture of solids, liquids, and gases that contain a variety of solid carbon-based dirt and metallic particles, as well as liquid coolant, fuel washdown, oil and water droplets.



Off the shelf PAO Synthetic oils are known as "Full Synthetic" and are uniform in molecule structure (hence the word synthetic) and less reactive to heat...about 15% by volume. Consistent small molecules carry heat more uniformly and produce less varnish. I didn't say none! Pumpabillity, wearability and oxidation stability is better than the solvent refined mineral oils I just discussed.

However, these Group IV PAO oils are much more aggressive on seals, and solubility is not very good. Solubility is the additive packages which drop out of them and end up in the oil pan. Change these oils at about 5000 miles for best results. In a 6 quart system like your Pentastar, just over 1 quart can end up in the catch can and out the exhaust. Neo, Royal Purple, Amsoil, Mobil 1, Redline, Quaker Q, and NAPA Synthetic are examples. It is interesting that Mobil makes 86% of all the PAO base stock that is sold on the market today. Since a lot of these companies don't do their own refining it isn't hard to understand that they are buying stock from Mobil and private labeling it.

QuantumBlue Custom Blended is what we design, and are also uniform in molecule structure (synthetic) and much much less reactive to heat....about 3% max by volume. We hydrogen crack sweet crude oil to take virtually all the reactives out of the oil so that you don't encounter them in your engine while being VERY friendly on your seals. It is a more expensive process to do this, but it yields an oil that will withstand anything you can throw at it and not turn to sludge and will not evaporate into the catch can and out the exhaust! It contains consistent larger molecules for better carrying capacity than PAO and are clean running for a long period of time. Very good pumpability, wearability, and oxidation stability than solvent refined or PAO based oils. It is very friendly on seals and the solubility is significantly better than either of the other two. Change intervals of these oils are in the 10 to 15k miles on one drain. In a 6 quart system, just 5.76 oz of the oil ends up in the catch can or out the exhaust compared to 2 qts out the exhaust in a solvent refined oil or 1 quart out the exhaust for the PAO Synthetic.

So assuming a conventional oil is $15.57 for 5 quarts of oil + 1 quart at $3.12 to make the 6 quarts + 7.88 for a cartridge filter = $26.57 x 1.075 tax = 28.56 per change....if you do it yourself. So 10k miles at 3.33 x 28.56 = $95.11.

Typical Synthetic Group IV would be like Mobil 1 at 8.99 per quart. 8.99 x 6 = 53.94 + 7.88 for and oil filter = 61.82 x 1.075 tax = $66.46 for 5k miles.

66.46 x 2 = $132.91 for 10k miles....again if you did it yourself.

QuantumBlue is $12.76 per quart x 6 = 76.56 + free oil filter this month and no tax = $76.56 + shipping of $12.00 to your door = $88.56 for 10k miles again if you did it yourself. You can take it to a local shop to do the change but use our oils.

In the end, the mineral oils don't protect anywhere near as well as our QB yet people are obsessed in changing them and spending more.

The PAO oils were better in their time but have been far eclipsed by what we make and we are no more expensive than a typical synthetic off the shelf and still do better than them in so many aspects.

The oil analysis charts that we post constantly prove that. :bigthumb:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
__________________
 
#7 ·
The dealer does not use synthetic oil in anything unless it is a SRT8 and I beleive all Dodge dealerships dump penzoil in your vehicles I recommend going with a full synthetic oil of your choice when you do your first oil change mine was at about 3,500 mi when the light came on.

You will notice when you get the factory oil out and the synthetic in your engine will run smoother and quieter too, even though the book says 8K my oil change indicator comes on about every 3,500 mi or so and when it does I change the oil.
 
#9 ·
Wow, there is a noticeable difference in how my car runs now with the new oil change. Can you Hemi is correct. Biggest difference me and my wife have noticed is we don't get the rough shift from 1st to 2nd anymore (so far). Wonder why the first oil change came so early. I only have 3800 miles on my charger.

But now my dilemma is if I want to continue paying $90 for full synthetic oil changes or switch to $35 for part synthetic. I've never put full syn in any of my cars before.


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#11 ·
The first oil change light, I believe, is hard set to come on around 3500 miles. My last two cars came on at about that mileage. After the first light, it goes off the conditions the engine sees, such as length of trips, how hard it's driven, temperatures, etc.

Consider doing your own oil changes. My car uses 7 quarts. I buy three 5 quart jugs of synthetic oil at Walmart for about $25 each. I also get two quality oil filters (Mopar or Motorcraft, Mobil1 if they have them) for about $5 each. $90 gets me 2 oil changes! Good for about 30k miles, using extended life synthetic oil. (Mobil 1 extended) Without having the oil analyzed, I'd stick with the service oil light.... or 8k miles, whichever occurs first.

To be honest, I have used many types/brands of oil. Use what you can afford and are comfortable with. The conditions your car sees play a far more important role in how your oil stands up, than the kind of oil you use.

Here is a thread showing all kinds of oils, all kinds of conditions. As a brief summary, I would describe it that the conditions your car sees play a far bigger role than the kind of oil you use:

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=107980

I've used full synthetic, and conventional oils... I haven't seen that big a difference in how they stood up in my car, based on oil analysis. (Oil is oil, use a quality API certified oil meeting the recommended requirements)
 
#14 ·
pd2behigh

Afternoon Brian , i would like to thank you once again for the speedy service , just got the oil changed in the power steering , excellent , as usual , the "B" is running great , love the engine oil too . thanks again great products , and the harley loves the oil you blended for it also . :rocker:
 
#17 · (Edited)
I had a very long conversation last night night with my eldest brother who is also an ASE Master mechanic for Infiniti. Over the least year he's spent a considerable amount of time researching oils and he summarized it for me (please excuse me if anything in here is misquoted since I'm not an expert).

There are basically two types of oils marketed as synthetics. Some are pure laboratory made synthetic oils (we'll call them true synthetics) and the others are derived from hydrocracked carbons. In the days where Mobil 1 reigned supreme, Castrol came on to the scene marketing a hydrocracked oil as a pure synthetic. When Mobil sued Castrol and lost, they resorted to the same tactic since hydrocracking is cheaper than manufacturing a true synthetic. As such, a number of the oils marketed as true synthetics really aren't.

That being said, he performs engine teardowns on a regular basis and he can attest to the fact that the new drain intervals released by the manufacturers are ludicrous at best. Conventional oils will not stand up to 8000 miles of use unless you like sludge and varnish as a byproduct of daily use. The only thing that will work properly is a true lab made synthetic.

Having just taken a look at the Amsoil website, their oil is made to run for 25K miles in normal duty vehicles and 15K in severe duty. Based on the drain intervals, I would feel confident in using this product. I'm sure Brian from QB will be able to jump in and clarify anything I've misquoted but as far as I'm concerned, any non-synthetic (and I refer to true lab made synthetics here) should be changed out at 3K with full synthetics like Amsoil running for 15K to 25K based on the duty cycle.

The 8K/6 month service interval is nothing more than a ploy to make the cost of ownership seem lower and it's a trap I almost fell into. Yes, newer engines are much tighter than their previous counterparts but if the oil's going to degrade in 3K miles, that's when it needs to be changed. In truth, the cost of ownership is lower with a true synthetic at an extended drain interval than with a conventional at 3K miles.

Again, I apologize for any misquoted information and I'm hopeful that Brian, as an expert, will be able to clarify anything that needs to be.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I had a very long conversation last night night with my eldest brother who is also an ASE Master mechanic for Infiniti. Over the least year he's spent a considerable amount of time researching oils and he summarized it for me (please excuse me if anything in here is misquoted since I'm not an expert).

There are basically two types of oils marketed as synthetics. Some are pure laboratory made synthetic oils (we'll call them true synthetics) These are the Group IV PAO oils that I spoke about earlier in this thread.

and the others are derived from hydrocracked carbons. These oils are the Group III oils that are refined.....also known as para-synthetic!

In the days where Mobil 1 reigned supreme, Castrol came on to the scene marketing a hydrocracked oil (Group III) as a pure synthetic. When Mobil sued Castrol (for daring to call not Group IV a synthetic) and lost, they resorted to the same tactic since hydrocracking is cheaper than manufacturing a true synthetic.

This is where you get the Mobil 1 oils with their "tri-synthetic" formula. (Group II, Group III, and Group IV) As I have said before, Group III and Group IV have drop out problems and seal issues. Our QuantumBlue is a Group II+++ basically the highest evolved and refined mineral base that doesn't have the drop out issues while very friendly on seals. Remember the word synthetic means synthesized molecule structure which is a characteristic of the oil not a PAO only type. The industry as watered down and tried to define the word....hence the lawsuit.

As such, a number of the oils marketed as true synthetics really aren't.

They are synthetic, but characteristic not PAO Group IV.


That being said, he performs engine teardowns on a regular basis and he can attest to the fact that the new drain intervals released by the manufacturers are ludicrous at best. Conventional oils will not stand up to 8000 miles of use unless you like sludge and varnish as a byproduct of daily use. He is completely correct here. The manufacturers recommend these 8k mile drain intervals on the conventional oil for Total Cost Of Ownership numbers to print as a marketing device to say...hey, the Charger costs less to operate than vehicle X or vehicle Y.

The only thing that will work properly is a true lab made synthetic. Actually the PAO and Group III oils have seal issues and solubility issues that drop their additive packages and are very small molecule oils. They have other issues than the conventional oils.....as I have stated earlier.

Having just taken a look at the Amsoil website, their oil is made to run for 25K miles in normal duty vehicles and 15K in severe duty. Based on the drain intervals, I would feel confident in using this product.

The severe duty schedule is normal driving these days.....especially with the increased temperatures and rpms that these motors are required to run with. The 3.6L is really a small engine to produce the 283 hp that it does NET! Remember that there is only 61.02 cubic inches per engine liter! So 61.02 x 3.6 = 219.67 CID or really 220. In 1969, a 318 cid (5.2L) produced 230 hp gross....which was without water pump or alternator attached. It also ran at 170 to 180 degrees all day long. Ours don't get the fan to come on till about 225 degrees and back down to 205 or so. We cook engines today and expect them to do more while the ILSAC GF-5 and API SN oils are reducing zinc, phosphorous and magnesium! Performance is going one way and the quality of the oils are going another! This is why we have to design the oils to deal with the specifics of not only the engine but also where it is used and what it has to encounter.


I'm sure Brian from QB will be able to jump in and clarify anything I've misquoted but as far as I'm concerned, any non-synthetic (and I refer to true lab made synthetics here) should be changed out at 3K with full synthetics like Amsoil running for 15K to 25K based on the duty cycle.

The acids and drop out along with the volatility of the Group IV negate the long intervals that are claimed by these people just as much as Mopar claims 8k miles with castrol GTX or Pennzoil. They all meet the GF-5 and SN spec while adding molybdenum disulfide and boron.....not good! Even Mobil one sais "Outstanding performance during the maximum oil change interval recommended in your owners manual." So eventhough they have extended drain interval claims, they will not go past the owners manual. 15,000 miles or what your owners manual sais. Again smoke and mirrors here! We make our QuantumBlue oils good for what we claim based on oil analysis and not a general statement. It aint arrogence if you can prove it!

The 8K/6 month service interval is nothing more than a ploy to make the cost of ownership seem lower and it's a trap I almost fell into. Yes, newer engines are much tighter than their previous counterparts but if the oil's going to degrade in 3K miles, that's when it needs to be changed. In truth, the cost of ownership is lower with a true synthetic at an extended drain interval than with a conventional at 3K miles.

Again, I apologize for any misquoted information and I'm hopeful that Brian, as an expert, will be able to clarify anything that needs to be.
This is why I continue discuss oils because the new people don't understand and are misinformed as to what the truth is. This is why I spent the time to write what I have. Sure, we are a vendor here and wish to make money, all companies do. But it is from a passion for these automobiles and the desire to help fellow motorheads to take car of their cars while ultimately saving money on changes, increasing fuel mileage, and protecting the car long term. Preventing a problem is much less costly than fixing it afterwords. We are here to prevent problems for the unknowing, and help those who have learned the differences.:beerchug:

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com
 
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