Srt Q & A Session: 01-17-07

[HEMEEE]

Participants Please:
Keep all questions on topic and related to the SRT lineup of vehicles - off-topic posts will be removed
Direct ALL questions to the Team AND allow the Team to answer ALL questions (no member discussions here)
Limit each post to one brief and clear question - review existing posts to avoid repeat questions
Allow time for a response - questions are not answered in order of post. If it appears you were missed, AND the same question was not answered for someone else, you may re-post
The SRT Team cannot answer questions about future product
On behalf of all of us... Happy New Year Team SRT !

And on a personal note:
Having moderated these sessions for a year now, I would like to proudly share with you that I am "official"!
I traded in my silver C and Santa brought me a beautiful new 2007 Steel Blue Metallic 300C SRT8! (pictured below w/Santa)
I can enthusiastically confirm that it is, as you have so aptly stated many times, kickass!!!! :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/HEMEEE/SRT8/IMG_0316WinCE.jpg

[Rambit]

Thanks again for coming back to do this! I for one appreciate these sessions a great deal. My questions today,in hopes you can put this controversal issue to rest once and for all are simply, from YOUR point of view:

1. What are the benefits, if any, of using lower temperature thermostats (performance related, track times etc)?

2. What, if any, are the dangers of doing this (premature engine component wear/failure, fuel ecconomy etc)?

3. Are there ANY other undesirable outcomes.

There are many members across all boards who have done this mod and swear by it, AND seem to have the stats to back them up. Please comment as best you are permitted from a theoretical standpoint.

Below are all the quotes from all SRT Engineer Chat Sessions from 10-27-2005 to 12-13-2006 where the thermostat question has been brought up. Many thanks to ResumeSpeed for providing this searchable database for me! I could be dangerous now...haha!!!

11-30-2005 - 3. Could you quickly address the effects of either a 180 or 160 degree thermostat on system operation?

SRTEngineers Reply:
11-30-2005 - Thermostats - generally, engines like to run cooler and will make more power less than 200'F. If they are run too cool, the electronics will not switch out of the warm up mode which needs to be over 150"f.
===================

04-12-2006 - Is there any benefit to changing to cooler running thermostats?

SRTEngineers Reply:
The engine is designed to run on the production thermostat which will produce a gauge reading near 200 'F on the gauge. Lowering the temp has not been developed . At lower temps, calibration will add fuel which does not always result added power.
===================

04-12-2006 - what is the effect of a cooler thermostat, good, bad or indifferent?

SRT Engineers Reply:
04-12-2006 - Generally better but we do not know.
===================

04-12-2006 - Should I be concerned my temperature went up to 217 from 202 in a matter of minutes while stuck on the highway in a snow storm on my way to California?

SRT Engineers Reply:
04-12-2006 - No with a 205 thermostat, 217 is no big deal. That's probably when your fans kicked on. You guys are just too trained on 195 thermostats...

====================
05-17-2006 - ...there are several people who have gone to lower thermostats. Are there any long term problems you can see by doing this?...

SRT Engineers Reply: (None)
===================
07-11-2006 - Several people have gone to lower thermostats on the 6.1's and I also see some have done it with their SRT10's here. Personally, I've grown accustomed to seeing operating temps above 210F and know the fan doesn't even come on till 217. My question is, are there any problems, ill effects or concerns by using lower temp thermostats
to engine components?

SRT Engineers Reply:
07-11-2006 - By lowering the thermostat, it may affect one of the OBD codes probably thermostat monitor and others, it alsocould impact fuel economy negatively. Good Luck.
====================

08-16-2006 - A question per the 6.1 Hemi and thermostats:
True or false: "Every 10 degree rise in coolant temp above 190 costs you a tenth at the track."

SRT Engineers Reply:
08-16-2006 - FALSE: The engine is designed to run at 215degF
====================

09-13-2006 - Other than decreased fuel efficiency, can you tell us if there are any potential engine problems/damage
that could result by using lower temp (180) thermostats?

SRT Engineers Reply"
09-13-2006 - the car is designed to run with the current thermostat, any changes to that are pointless for performance improvements
====================

06-12-2006 - I HAVE A 06 SRT/8 300, IT RUNS HIGH TEMPERATURES ESPECIALLY AT HIGHWAY SPEEDS, CAN A 180 DEGREE THERMOSTAT BE INSTALLED FOR BETTER PERFORMANCE, WITHOUT ANY OTHER CHANGES

SRT Engineers Reply:
06-12-2006 - The stock thermostat is full open at 215F. It is not a typical 195 degree thermostat like most people are used to. The Hemi is designed to run at the higher temperatures and we do not recommend installing a 180 thermostat. The SRT8s have one of the most robust cooling systems in the company. Don't worry about it.
=====================

12-13-2006 - Which brings to mind a question I've asked before, but never received a clear answer to. What are the DISADVANTAGES, if any to using a lower temp thermostat? I believe it has been mentioned fuel ecconomy would decrease. Do you see any other problems with this?
SRT Engineers Reply:

12-13-2006 - This question continues to surprise me. Out in LA I was bombarded with owners convinced they had a system that was running to hot. I will reiterate - we've tested the SRT8s under the hottest conditions, harshest tracks and steepest grades to ensure it meets our customer requirements. The coolant system is rock steady for thermal. You don't want to change the thermstat. We've selected the current to meet both hot and COLD durability cycles.
======================

12-13-2006 - But many owners swear that by putting in a lower thermostat they are getting noticeably better ET times, and they have track slips to "prove it" - so once and for all, will installing a lower thermo result in BETTER ET times or not?

SRT Engineers Reply:
12-13-2006 - Ask these same people a year from now after city driving and the answer may differ. SRT does not recommend any changes to Thermostat. If it helped performance without offsetting durability then this would be easy. We've never done durability HOT/COLD start on the lower thermostat temp. Therefore we won't recommend.
======================

Rambit

[1bad4dr]

What kind of Horse Power will the transmission, rearend, and halfshafts handle?

Thanks SRTE's for ALL you do and for the past year for these chats. It IS appreciated. :)

[MarylandSRT8]

Thanks for joining us tonight SRT Team! I have a 2006 Charger SRT8 and want to know if your team is aware of an electrical problem with the headlights? When I drive the car either in the morning or evening the headlights pulse at idle when sitting at a light, when you let off the brakes they get real bright then dim down. I know quite a few Charger owners who experience this, is there a fix in the works?

[07superbee]

Is anything been done to reduce weight?
2.What is the top speed on the super bee?
3.When are more factory race part's going to be availble?

You guy's nailed it with these car's good job.

[hawk570]

Thanks for helping us out. Is there any TSB's in the works for the delay in the transmission to engage when shifted into drive from any gear? My SRT has always done this and there are other members with the same problem.

[70GTO]

Greetings, I own a 2006 SRt Charger, My question is transmission related. The internal Clutches and Planetary train in a SRt 722.6 Trans, are they stronger or different than the Internal Trans parts of a 722.6 trans found in lets say a 320 series Benz ? And if they are different, what is different ie more clutches, planets cut , valve body?
Thank you for your time

[RapidTransit]

Thanks for participating!! I've got two questions:

1. I haven't had the TCM flash applied to my SRT-8 yet. I've never experienced the hesitation while in Drive, it's only happened while in autostick. Other than implementing an automatic shift when the engine reaches a certain rpm in autostick mode are there any performance improvements or adverse affects that might result from the flash either in Drive or autostick?

2. Will we be able to swape out the 6.1 for the 392--plug and play--or will there be electronics/software issues to overcome? Will there be any support for someone wanting to do a 392 swap?

Thank you!

[Hemi31]

To add on 1bad4dr's question are the axle stubs the same as the R/T or do they go through an extra hardening?
And have you guys been involved at all with Kiesler and the six speed trannies coming out?

[BarrettF77]

I am in the market to buy a Charger SRT. My question is when is the my gig unit going to be available on the Charger SRT and are you going to ever implement HID Lighting to the cars headlights. I am leaning away from the chrysler product simply because I cannot get answers to my questions and the responses prior. I love the product, I love how it drives, but I would really appreciate your feedback and letting me know about this. Thanks in advance.

[Y2K6SRT]

Thanks for helping us out. Is there any TSB's in the works for the delay in the transmission to engage when shifted into drive from any gear? My SRT has always done this and there are other members with the same problem.

1. I echo this question but am guessing it relates to throttle rather than the transmission: A serious "tip in" issue when shifting from park to any gear, including reverse. Hit the gas and nothing happens - until you feed it more throttle and are practically launching the car (bad when backing into your garage).

2. Any "official" word on the cloudy coolant issue, including those with a milky substance and amonia smell?

Great job with these cars!

[Team SRT]

What kind of Horse Power will the transmission, rearend, and halfshafts handle?

Thanks SRTE's for ALL you do and for the past year for these chats. It IS appreciated. :)

Hi guys - welcome back and happy new year !


Actually, it is torque and not power that is used to size drivetrain parts. Power is a measure of energy....torque generates the stress in the parts. The answer to your question is a little difficult. What is your duty cycle ? The drivetrain is sized to have adequate capacity (safety factor) for what we believe the worst case customer can throw at the car for 100,000+ miles and have no failures. It can probably handle more torque than the engine's current 420 ft-lbs, but the long term durability will be shorter. It is a tradeoff depending on the duty cycle.

[Team SRT]

Thanks for joining us tonight SRT Team! I have a 2006 Charger SRT8 and want to know if your team is aware of an electrical problem with the headlights? When I drive the car either in the morning or evening the headlights pulse at idle when sitting at a light, when you let off the brakes they get real bright then dim down. I know quite a few Charger owners who experience this, is there a fix in the works?

A moderate amount of headlamp flicker is normal to all vehicles. What you are seeing is the voltage at the headlamps increasing as you come off idle and the alternator output increasing with engine speed. Headlamp flicker is more noticable on vehicles where the battery is in the trunk... such as the LX family.

[Team SRT]

Thanks for helping us out. Is there any TSB's in the works for the delay in the transmission to engage when shifted into drive from any gear? My SRT has always done this and there are other members with the same problem.

TSB 21-020-06 was released earlier this year.

[Team SRT]

1. I echo this question but am guessing it relates to throttle rather than the transmission: A serious "tip in" issue when shifting from park to any gear, including reverse. Hit the gas and nothing happens - until you feed it more throttle and are practically launching the car (bad when backing into your garage).

2. Any "official" word on the cloudy coolant issue, including those with a milky substance and amonia smell?

Great job with these cars!


The delay when you shift from Park to Drive, and Drive to Rev, etc. is actually a feature to help the life of the transmission. It allows the transmission to ensure it has its clutches engaged before it will allow the engine to make torque. This was a feature we inherited from the Mercedes side of our house.

[Team SRT]

Participants Please:
Limit each post to 1-2 brief and clear questions - Please review existing posts to avoid unnecessary duplicate questions
Keep all questions on topic and related to the SRT lineup of vehicles
As always, the SRT Team cannot answer questions about future product
Direct ALL questions to the Team AND allow the Team to answer ALL questions
Please allow time for a response, questions are not answered in any particular order. If toward the end of the session it appears your question was missed, please review your post for a reply BEFORE reposting, as occassionally an answer will be provided via an edit to your original post rather than a quote -On behalf of all of us... Happy New Year Team SRT !

And on a personal note:
Having moderated these sessions for a year now, I would like to proudly share with you that I am "official"!
I traded in my silver C and Santa brought me a beautiful new 2007 Steel Blue Metallic 300C SRT8! (pictured below w/Santa)
I can enthusiastically confirm that it is, as you have so aptly stated many times, kickass!!!! :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v615/HEMEEE/SRT8/IMG_0316WinCE.jpg

First of all Happy New Year to all of you and welcome back to the SRT chat.

And even more importantly, a big SRT THANK YOU to Hemeee for <edit: her> recent purchase. It's you guys and gals who enable us to come to you on the forums and share the fun.

[1bad4dr]

Thanks for the reply and the correction. haha....

Are the Mercedes AMG transmissions and rearends interchangable with our current application?

If so, which ones will work? In other words if I need to upgrade to a stronger transmission and/or rearend, which would you, the SRTE's recommend?

[NECharger]

TSB 21-020-06 was released earlier this year.

Does this TSB apply to R/T's also? Some members here have had their R/T's flashed with this.

[Team SRT]

Is anything been done to reduce weight?
2.What is the top speed on the super bee?
3.When are more factory race part's going to be availble?

You guy's nailed it with these car's good job.


The top speed for the Superbee is 165 - 170 mph. As for the performance parts, we don't have anything ready to announce right now on the 6.1L, but are always looking at new stuff. Stay tuned.

[bearmandog]

I have the Mopar Performance PCM/TCM for my 5.7 that came with the performance upgrade. I was the test car For Hendricks in S.C.

My question; What do I do if this car needs to be flashed with an update? Will the Starscan cause any harm to my upgraded PCM/TCM or revert them to stock? If an upgrade needs to be done what can my dealer do?

bearmandog

[Team SRT]

Greetings, I own a 2006 SRt Charger, My question is transmission related. The internal Clutches and Planetary train in a SRt 722.6 Trans, are they stronger or different than the Internal Trans parts of a 722.6 trans found in lets say a 320 series Benz ? And if they are different, what is different ie more clutches, planets cut , valve body?
Thank you for your time

We'll have to look into that one and get back to you. The NAG1 (W5A580) trans in your SRT-8's is common (except for the output flange) with the 5.7L Hemi and many other current production Mercedes vehicles.

[Hemi31]

Any change in regard to the front end clunkng?Have enough people complained yet?

[HEMEEE]

First of all Happy New Year to all of you and welcome back to the SRT chat.

And even more importantly, a big SRT THANK YOU to Hemeee for his recent purchase. It's you guys and gals who enable us to come to you on the forums and share the fun.The pleasure is all mine, I assure you.
...And I am actually a "HER" ;)

[Team SRT]

Does this TSB apply to R/T's also? Some members here have had their R/T's flashed with this.

This revision only affects SRT products. The trans controller is common for all uses of the A580 transmission and contains the calibrations for all vehicle applications. So flashing an R/T won't hurt anything but it also won't have any benefit.

[PBGas]

Hello SRT team...thanks for your great work!

I've noticed on a friends Superbee that he has a 0-60 timer included in his options in the cluster. Would this be something that will be considered for a computer update to current SRT-8 owners?

[07superbee]

Thank's for the reply.
#1.Any functional hood to air scoop in the work's?

Can you please make sure the new charger body style look's just like the concept charger.Thank's

[Team SRT]

Unfortunately, we can not discuss future products.

[daver40]

Please give us an insiders view. Is there something about our cars we should know, but probably don't? (I own an R/T)

Also, as a fan, you must love these cars, as an engineer, you must be really impressed by them. What is the most impressive single feature of these cars, from an engineering point of view?

[ortizmro]

My question has to do with what is known as the "fuse trick." That is, many folks have gone to the front power distribution center in the engine compartment and with the engine off and key removed from the ignition, removed fuses 11, 14 and 16, and leaving these out for a period of time, then replacing these fuses. One method has it that while you have these fuses out, you go into the car and insert the key into the ignition and try to start the car (which of course it won't start), and wait till you hear a couple of chimes, etc. Then remove the key and re-insert the fuses, and then start the car and away you go.

The idea I guess is that this re-sets the PCM and is supposedly "good" to do particularly after one has done some sort of a modification to their car. But a lot of folks have done this "fuse trick" even if they have not done a modification, and feel that it has made their car feel "new" again.

Question is, does this procedure do any harm to our cars? Does it do any good?

Thanks in advance!!

[jlandbl]

For the Jeep SRT8, have you compared 0-60 times before and after the
TCM Flash (21-020-06)? If so, were there any differences and/or do you
expect +/- changes in 0-60 before/after the flash? Also, there was a rumor
at one point that the new flash was being pulled by DCX. Is that true?

[ResumeSpeed]

The lug nut torque specification for the LX SRT8 wheels is listed as "115 lbs". For some odd reason the only spec that the Jeep service manuals list is "100 Lbs. +/- 15" and is not noted as being SRT8-specific. Is 115 the correct torque spec for the Jeep?

[MENACE]

Hello :) , is Jeep going to do anything about the numerous complaints of squeaky brakes on the Grand Cherokee Srt8?

[jlandbl]

What are the HP gains expected from the Mopar CAI on the Jeep SRT8?
What are the HP gains expected from the Mopar CAI + Mopar/Corsa Exhaust on the Jeep SRT8?

[Team SRT]

Thank's for the reply.
#1.Any functional hood to air scoop in the work's?

Can you please make sure the new charger body style look's just like the concept charger.Thank's

Sorry we can't talk about future product. Nice try!

[Team SRT]

Thanks for participating!! I've got two questions:

1. I haven't had the TCM flash applied to my SRT-8 yet. I've never experienced the hesitation while in Drive, it's only happened while in autostick. Other than implementing an automatic shift when the engine reaches a certain rpm in autostick mode are there any performance improvements or adverse affects that might result from the flash either in Drive or autostick?

2. Will we be able to swape out the 6.1 for the 392--plug and play--or will there be electronics/software issues to overcome? Will there be any support for someone wanting to do a 392 swap?

Thank you!

The TCM TSB released just before Christmas changes the software strategy that helps the trans predict when to shift so that we can shift right at redline every time w/o kissing the rev-limit. It is more robust that the original strategy. We did not change anything to affect shift firmness, speed, etc. It is funny that people are perceiving this. We did extensive 0-60, 1/4 mile and track testing to verify the performance did not degrade.

[jlandbl]

The stock airbox/air filter size is the same for the 3.7, 5.7 and 6.1
Jeep vehicles. How can the air flow requirements be the same on these
engines?

[jlandbl]

Do you plan to offer a TSB for the brake squeal/rotor scoring issue
common on many Jeep SRT8's?

[Team SRT]

I have the Mopar Performance PCM/TCM for my 5.7 that came with the performance upgrade. I was the test car For Hendricks in S.C.

My question; What do I do if this car needs to be flashed with an update? Will the Starscan cause any harm to my upgraded PCM/TCM or revert them to stock? If an upgrade needs to be done what can my dealer do?

bearmandog

A Starscan tool should not be able update a MOPAR performance computer. A calibration released for a service update will only update a previous version of that calibration.

[GLHS837]

Hi guys, as always, thanks for almost 4 years of happy motoring. My question is about the ESP disable feature. The powertrain book says this does still not fully disable torqe managment. Exactly what does Disable mode disable and not disable?

I understand the ESP is actually a grab bag of systems all working as a team, so its hard to state this acuratelybut heres my best guess.

I suspect it disables the traction control and differential braking aspects of ESP, but leaves a diminished torque managment and full ABS. Is this correct?

[NECharger]

This revision only affects SRT products. The trans controller is common for all uses of the A580 transmission and contains the calibrations for all vehicle applications. So flashing an R/T won't hurt anything but it also won't have any benefit.

Thanks for the answer. I have to say it contradicts with the reports of those that got it. They are reporting firmer shifts as well as an an earlier shift between first and second. So there will be some confusion remaining around this.

[jlandbl]

Is there such a thing as an SRT Certified Technician available at some
dealers? Some dealers claim to have them and others don't.

[ElRubio]

Hi Team SRT...!!!!!
Will there be any changes regarding the exterior color?

[SERBS_HEMI_C]

I have a 300 SRT.. how are some members claiming that they are getting no rubbing/problems using 275/40R20 size tires on the fronts?

And thank you for the TCM TSB of last month.. i love they way its changed my car.. appreciated..

[Team SRT]

Hello SRT team...thanks for your great work!

I've noticed on a friends Superbee that he has a 0-60 timer included in his options in the cluster. Would this be something that will be considered for a computer update to current SRT-8 owners?

There is no plan to go back to previous years at this time. Sorry, it is a great little feature.

[Team SRT]

To add on 1bad4dr's question are the axle stubs the same as the R/T or do they go through an extra hardening?
And have you guys been involved at all with Kiesler and the six speed trannies coming out?

The axle stubs are not interchangable....and we have not been involved with Kiesler

[GLHS837]

Please folks, enough of the future product questions, they cant answer them, no matter how you phrase them.

[jimmybamslam]

This revision only affects SRT products. The trans controller is common for all uses of the A580 transmission and contains the calibrations for all vehicle applications. So flashing an R/T won't hurt anything but it also won't have any benefit.


I hope I'm not asking the same question(I'm not sure what TSB he was asking about). But there are 5.7L owners that are getting their cars flashed with the 1-2 SRT shift hesitation TSB. And they are saying the car shifts much better. Would there be any pros/cons to an RT having this TSB flash done.

Thanks again for doing this for all of us LX Maniacs!!!!

[Team SRT]

The lug nut torque specification for the LX SRT8 wheels is listed as "115 lbs". For some odd reason the only spec that the Jeep service manuals list is "100 Lbs. +/- 15" and is not noted as being SRT8-specific. Is 115 the correct torque spec for the Jeep?

You should follow the torque spec that is in the Jeep service manual for the SRT8 Jeep. The factory spec is indeed 100 ft-lbs +/- 15, so nominal is 100 ft-lbs.

[Team SRT]

I am in the market to buy a Charger SRT. My question is when is the my gig unit going to be available on the Charger SRT and are you going to ever implement HID Lighting to the cars headlights. I am leaning away from the chrysler product simply because I cannot get answers to my questions and the responses prior. I love the product, I love how it drives, but I would really appreciate your feedback and letting me know about this. Thanks in advance.

We really appreciate that you're looking at the Charger SRT8 (you'll appreciate it too, trust us.) We want to answer every question we can but, as we've mentioned, we can't talk about the 2008 products until later in the year. Please check back with us then!

[ResumeSpeed]

About the INCREDIBLE 0-60 timer feature on the SRT8 models, exactly how accurate are we talking here?

[SpookHemi]

First, thanks for the 1-2 hesitation fix.
Second...any engineers aware of "climate control" issues ?. I've had recurring problems (had the climate control head unit replaced last month) with cool air blowing out of the ducts (Temp set at auto 72-74 degrees)often when bright sunlight is entering the windshield. In the early cold AM heat output is fine. After car sits at work under sunlight for about 4 hours then go to lunch (still cold..35-45 degress)get "cool" air blowing out (even when engine temp is at 200 degress). The dealer does not know how to proceed. Any help is appreciated.

[Team SRT]

Hello :) , is Jeep going to do anything about the numerous complaints of squeaky brakes on the Grand Cherokee Srt8?

We are investigating as we speak....stay tuned

[Hemi31]

The axle stubs are not interchangable.So then how are the 5.7 guys putting on SRT rear hubs/brakes and using the 5.7 axles?

[jay2puff]

is it ok to change the oil for the transmition for synthetic oil

[ccl088]

Can you respond to the leaking rearends?It seems that the rearends are leaking oil from the vent pipe.Any comments on this??
Thanks

[Team SRT]

Thanks for the reply and the correction. haha....

Are the Mercedes AMG transmissions and rearends interchangable with our current application?

If so, which ones will work? In other words if I need to upgrade to a stronger transmission and/or rearend, which would you, the SRTE's recommend?

AMG uses the same NAG1 trans is some applications and other variants in others. While the parts may bolt in, the trouble will be calibrations. Every engine and trans (and vehicle line) will have it's own calibration. So, if you put the new Mercedes 7-speed in a Charger SRT8 the engine and trans will not communicate. No one has ever calibrated the pair together. Sorry !

As far as rear ends (mmm....rear ends...) most of the Mercedes axles have even lower (numerically) final drive ratios. Not something you probably want for your SRT-8. We put the largest axle Mercedes had in the SRT-8 that would package in the rear cradle. It is a 215mm unit. We investigated limited slips, but found the open diff with the BLD (brake lock differential) feature in the ESP system to be quite effective. We realize that some people are putting the Quaife rear end in their vehicles. We have tried that unit (and a few others) and they seem effective also. Note that the ESP system was not calibrated to have a LSD in the rear axle, but it seems to cope OK. Hope this helps.

[Team SRT]

My question has to do with what is known as the "fuse trick." That is, many folks have gone to the front power distribution center in the engine compartment and with the engine off and key removed from the ignition, removed fuses 11, 14 and 16, and leaving these out for a period of time, then replacing these fuses. One method has it that while you have these fuses out, you go into the car and insert the key into the ignition and try to start the car (which of course it won't start), and wait till you hear a couple of chimes, etc. Then remove the key and re-insert the fuses, and then start the car and away you go.

The idea I guess is that this re-sets the PCM and is supposedly "good" to do particularly after one has done some sort of a modification to their car. But a lot of folks have done this "fuse trick" even if they have not done a modification, and feel that it has made their car feel "new" again.

Question is, does this procedure do any harm to our cars? Does it do any good?

Thanks in advance!!

Removing fuse 11 removes the battery feed to the engine controller. A couple minutes of being left unplugged will clear your adaptive memory. This forces the engine to run at pre-programmed state that is not optimized for you specific vehicle. Within minutes of starting the engine the adaptives will be relearned (this is a good thing) and the engine will perform at it's optimum levels.

[Team SRT]

Please give us an insiders view. Is there something about our cars we should know, but probably don't? (I own an R/T)

Also, as a fan, you must love these cars, as an engineer, you must be really impressed by them. What is the most impressive single feature of these cars, from an engineering point of view?

My favorite features are the incredible torque of the 6.1 Hemi, fantastic handling of the SRT suspension and the most comfortable performance seat in the the world...so why do you still have an R/T???

[slack-axe]

I drive an '04 SRT4 with Stage1 and the Mopar Catback exhaust. What is the preferred gap for the NGK 4306 plugs with this setup?

Thx,
Phil C.

[Team SRT]

About the INCREDIBLE 0-60 timer feature on the SRT8 models, exactly how accurate are we talking here?

The cluster 0-60 timer doesn't compensate for rollout (like a track would) so won't exactly agree with the their timing lights. But close.

[Team SRT]

For the Jeep SRT8, have you compared 0-60 times before and after the
TCM Flash (21-020-06)? If so, were there any differences and/or do you
expect +/- changes in 0-60 before/after the flash? Also, there was a rumor
at one point that the new flash was being pulled by DCX. Is that true?


Jeep SRT8 0-60 times should be the same before and after the flash and the rumour is not true.

[cmn1]

Is there ever going to be a trailer hitch released for the Jeep SRT8. Spring is right around the corner and we are on the second model year. This really can't be that difficult, is it?

[Team SRT]

Is there such a thing as an SRT Certified Technician available at some
dealers? Some dealers claim to have them and others don't.

All Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep dealers do extensive training of their technicians. As part of every dealer's yearly training program, there is an SRT section for SRT products, so every dealer is up to speed on our products.

[MENACE]

We are investigating as we speak....stay tuned

Thanks Team SRT. Please do something about the squeaky brakes. My wife hates this and she is passing this hate on to me.:cry: :(

[kkd60]

Im not sure if this is a future question or not, it could have already been announced. Are you guys replacing the srt-10 ram or is it just gone. ARe the intake runners the 6.1 intake manifold longer than than the runners on the 5.7 truck intake? Thanks.

[Team SRT]

I drive an '04 SRT4 with Stage1 and the Mopar Catback exhaust. What is the preferred gap for the NGK 4306 plugs with this setup?

Thx,
Phil C.

Check your owner's manual. It is the same plug and gap as stock.

[Team SRT]

is it ok to change the oil for the transmition for synthetic oil


The oil in the tranny is already synthetic. We recommend only the factory fill because we know the durability characteristics as related to the trans.

[malbee]

I have a 06 Daytona that didn't have steering wheel controls or Nav on the stock setup. I had the NAV added at the dealer, is there anyway to add the steering wheel controls?

[Team SRT]

Hello :) , is Jeep going to do anything about the numerous complaints of squeaky brakes on the Grand Cherokee Srt8?

is it coming from front or rear ?

[Team SRT]

Thanks for the answer. I have to say it contradicts with the reports of those that got it. They are reporting firmer shifts as well as an an earlier shift between first and second. So there will be some confusion remaining around this.

Not knowing the software level they started at... they may have jumped several revisions and got a calibration that was rolled-in previously.

[Undertheradar_2006]

Not knowing the software level they started at... they may have jumped several revisions and got a calibration that was rolled-in previously.

Why does the NEW IPOD adapter clear my presets on my sirius satelite?? 2006 SRT8

[Team SRT]

Hi guys, as always, thanks for almost 4 years of happy motoring. My question is about the ESP disable feature. The powertrain book says this does still not fully disable torqe managment. Exactly what does Disable mode disable and not disable?

I understand the ESP is actually a grab bag of systems all working as a team, so its hard to state this acuratelybut heres my best guess.

I suspect it disables the traction control and differential braking aspects of ESP, but leaves a diminished torque managment and full ABS. Is this correct?

In Partial ESP off mode, we simply allow more wheel slip and more yaw, before the system intervenes. In Full ESP Off mode, we turn off the slip control and yaw control all together.

In both modes, the BLD feature (brake lock differential) is always active, since the car does not have a LSD. ABS is also always on. Torque management (defined as signals between the trans and engine to control torque during shifts) is always on. This is to ensure 100,000+ durability on your vehicle. EVERY modern automatic transmission has a strategy like this. We think the trans shifts pretty damn quick, based on the competitive cars we benchmarked.

[Team SRT]

Thanks Team SRT. Please do something about the squeaky brakes. My wife hates this and she is passing this hate on to me.:cry: :(

what year is your car.....

[toohighpsi]

One of my buddies had his SRT8 in for service out in CA and apparently the dealer tech and zone service rep talked to someone at SRT and they spoke about our ammonia coolant situation.... basically it sounds like the tech was told to Use the factory flush and fill procedure in the service manual on his new engine and should use mopar coolant and add a bottle of some Valvoline additive product called 'Super Protector'... is there any truth to this? Thanks!

[InferAl]

Hi nice of you to answer our questions

Why did some of the 5.7 cars that had thier TCM's flashed to upgrade to AK experience our 1st to 2nd shift RPM to drop from 56xx rpms to 5300 to 5400 rpms

Thanks

[ltdodge]

In search of more power on the srt, many have gone with the route of supercharging or ported and polished heads and changing of the cam.

we know that the supercharger is not too safe due to programing issues, but many have gone with the combo of port and polished intake and heads and changing out the cam, and have shown up to 65 more Hp in the rear wheels, how bullit proof is the internals on the 6.1 to handle to increase in hp in regard to long term reliability? It seems that this has been the best hp upgrade without much harm to the engine like supercharging. You have released the upgraded heads for the 5.7, will the 6.1 heads be available at a later date, or is the increase in hp bad on a the 6.1 engine???

TEAM SRT thanks for time....its very much appreciated.

[MENACE]

is it coming from front or rear ?

07, Front and on alot of Jeep SRT8's from what I have read here.:)

[GLHS837]

As an admin note, please know that the Team might not answer non-SRT specific questions being that they might not any folks with expertise in that particular system, say HVAC or steering wheel controls.

[Team SRT]

I have a 06 Daytona that didn't have steering wheel controls or Nav on the stock setup. I had the NAV added at the dealer, is there anyway to add the steering wheel controls?

The wheel would fit, but I can't tell you if the dealer is going to be able to wire it up for you.

[Team SRT]

First, thanks for the 1-2 hesitation fix.
Second...any engineers aware of "climate control" issues ?. I've had recurring problems (had the climate control head unit replaced last month) with cool air blowing out of the ducts (Temp set at auto 72-74 degrees)often when bright sunlight is entering the windshield. In the early cold AM heat output is fine. After car sits at work under sunlight for about 4 hours then go to lunch (still cold..35-45 degress)get "cool" air blowing out (even when engine temp is at 200 degress). The dealer does not know how to proceed. Any help is appreciated.

We're not aware of any SRT climate control problems. The dealer is the proper place to have this addressed, so all I can suggest is trying a different dealer if you're not getting the problem solved.

[Team SRT]

Im not sure if this is a future question or not, it could have already been announced. Are you guys replacing the srt-10 ram or is it just gone. ARe the intake runners the 6.1 intake manifold longer than than the runners on the 5.7 truck intake? Thanks.

The Ram SRT10's last year was 2006 but there are about 500-600 in dealer inventory nationwide. Better get one while they last.

The intake manifolds for the 6.1 and 5.7 are totally different. We don't have the data handy to answer.

[ResumeSpeed]

Some owners have claimed a whopping gain of 22 RWHP by simply adding a CAI to the 6.1 engine. Are they dreaming or are their track slips inaccurate? From an engineering standpoint, what's the highest possible hp one could expect to gain with a "perfectly" designed CAI on a 6.1?

[critten1]

We are investigating as we speak....stay tuned

Thank you for speaking with us. I bought a Torred Daytona about a month ago and am very nervous about some of the same brake problems mentioned in other posts in this forum, squeaking, excessive dust, premature wear and warped rotors. Is something also in the works to address this for the R/T as well?

[Team SRT]

So then how are the 5.7 guys putting on SRT rear hubs/brakes and using the 5.7 axles?

OK - clarification. The rear wheel bearings and hubs are the same 5.7 to 6.1L. So the halfshaft to hub interface is the same 5.7L and 6.1L. You can't put a SRT-8 halfshaft on a 5.7L because the 6.1L Knuckle and park brake cable are different to accomodate the larger CV jointd. You should be able to put the SRT-8 rear knuckle and brake package on a 5.7L. Sorry for the cornfusion.

[Team SRT]

One of my buddies had his SRT8 in for service out in CA and apparently the dealer tech and zone service rep talked to someone at SRT and they spoke about our ammonia coolant situation.... basically it sounds like the tech was told to Use the factory flush and fill procedure in the service manual on his new engine and should use mopar coolant and add a bottle of some Valvoline additive product called 'Super Protector'... is there any truth to this? Thanks!

If your vehicle exhibits the ammonia / foamy coolant, please take your vehicle to your dealer and ask for them to call the dealer zone rep. That is all we can say on the forums at this time, but your friend might be on to something. Stay tuned...

;)

[kkd60]

thanks for the response. the 6.1 intake runners look longer but I wasnt sure. Great products you guys create, my wife drives a 300srt8 and she loves it. I have a ram 5.7 with a 6.1 intake manifold and it feels like I gained tq down low is why I was asking about the longer runners. Thanks for your time.

[Team SRT]

Is there ever going to be a trailer hitch released for the Jeep SRT8. Spring is right around the corner and we are on the second model year. This really can't be that difficult, is it?

This has turned out to be more of a challenge than first thought. When we develope a package we have to make sure it does more than just tow. It must be usable and safe for all. Stay tuned, we are committed to figure it out....stay tuned....

[Black06RT]

Can you please elaborate on the "whine" at idle that comes from beneath the car-mine has 2000 miles on it and has made this sound from day one. I just had first oil change- 0W40 at dealer as recommended in winter climates(it is 24 degrees here today) and the whine is as loud as ever. I believe a TSB was issued recently recommending 15W50 for summer months to quiet the "oil squirters" but continues to recommend 0w40 for winter. What exactly causes the noise and what was done to engines after Jan06 to solve the problem? Will these early engines have problems because of this? I traded an 06 RT for this 06 SRT and I love the car performance wise. Thank you for your time. Mike






'

[Team SRT]

07, Front and on alot of Jeep SRT8's from what I have read here.:)

did you take your car to the dealer to check the front brakes ?

[RapidTransit]

The TCM TSB released just before Christmas changes the software strategy that helps the trans predict when to shift so that we can shift right at redline every time w/o kissing the rev-limit. It is more robust that the original strategy. We did not change anything to affect shift firmness, speed, etc. It is funny that people are perceiving this. We did extensive 0-60, 1/4 mile and track testing to verify the performance did not degrade.

Thanks for the response--do you have any input on question #2:

2. Will we be able to swape out the 6.1 for the 392--plug and play--or will there be electronics/software issues to overcome? Will there be any support for someone wanting to do a 392 swap?

[Team SRT]

Can you respond to the leaking rearends?It seems that the rearends are leaking oil from the vent pipe.Any comments on this??
Thanks

We saw this only once during development when one of our techs over filled an axle (the fill volume on the 6.1L 215mm rear axle is different than a 5.7L 210mm axle). I would have the dealer drain and re-fill your axle to verify proper volume.

[DP03]

In Partial ESP off mode, we simply allow more wheel slip and more yaw, before the system intervenes. In Full ESP Off mode, we turn off the slip control and yaw control all together.

In both modes, the BLD feature (brake lock differential) is always active, since the car does not have a LSD. ABS is also always on. Torque management (defined as signals between the trans and engine to control torque during shifts) is always on. This is to ensure 100,000+ durability on your vehicle. EVERY modern automatic transmission has a strategy like this. We think the trans shifts pretty damn quick, based on the competitive cars we benchmarked.+

There is absolutely still electronic intervention with "ESP full off". It seems to be some degree of yaw control still active. If slip control and yaw control are fully disengaged, one would be able to make a turn onto a street from a stop, punch it and the car would spin all the way around. The electronics do not allow this in any mode. Is is possible there is still some degree of yaw control in the ESP off mode?

[Hemi31]

OK - clarification. The rear wheel bearings and hubs are the same 5.7 to 6.1L. So the halfshaft to hub interface is the same 5.7L and 6.1L. You can't put a SRT-8 halfshaft on a 5.7L because the 6.1L Knuckle and park brake cable are different to accomodate the larger CV jointd. You should be able to put the SRT-8 rear knuckle and brake package on a 5.7L. Sorry for the cornfusion.Thank you.So theoreticaly(sorry to be a pita)I should be able to take apart a CV Joint and use an RT Stub on an SRT axle?

[Team SRT]

Hi nice of you to answer our questions

Why did some of the 5.7 cars that had thier TCM's flashed to upgrade to AK experience our 1st to 2nd shift RPM to drop from 56xx rpms to 5300 to 5400 rpms

Thanks

Sorry but we truly do not have any experience with the 5.7L engines.

[MENACE]

did you take your car to the dealer to check the front brakes ?

Not yet, but I have imformed them of it. I have only had it for ten days now.

[Team SRT]

Thank you for speaking with us. I bought a Torred Daytona about a month ago and am very nervous about some of the same brake problems mentioned in other posts in this forum, squeaking, excessive dust, premature wear and warped rotors. Is something also in the works to address this for the R/T as well?

We only work with SRTs, so we can't address any Daytona questions. They have completely different sets of components.

[6POINT1]

Since it hasn't been brought up yet, but I see it all over the forums. What about the front suspension clunk that is prevalent on the LXs? Mine is gettting worse as time goes on and my dealer calls it normal. I know it's much worse now than any other time and I'm starting to notice a chattering when backing out in the morning and turning the wheel.

Is this on your radar?

[BILLSHOE]

why does car feel like its getting bumped when sitting at light?happens all the time..feels like tranny

[InferAl]

What sets shift points the PCM or the TCM or something else altogether

Thanks

[HEMEEE]

To all participants:
Please observe the Q&A guidelines in Post #1

[xenophex]

Greets,
I was driving home the other night in stop and go traffic and expierienced a delay in the throttle. I was at a 15MPH coast in "auto" mode, and when I went to accelerate nothing happened. I almost pulled over, but put it into manual mode and throttle came back.
Let me know if this is a known issue or software update related.
2007 Charger SRT8 980 miles on it when it occured. Hasn't happened since.

Car is amazing I love it.

[garyholl]

A saw a Charger today with R/T badges on the front and rear and SRT6 badges on the sides behind the front tires. Is there any such thing?

[Team SRT]

In search of more power on the srt, many have gone with the route of supercharging or ported and polished heads and changing of the cam.

we know that the supercharger is not too safe due to programing issues, but many have gone with the combo of port and polished intake and heads and changing out the cam, and have shown up to 65 more Hp in the rear wheels, how bullit proof is the internals on the 6.1 to handle to increase in hp in regard to long term reliability? It seems that this has been the best hp upgrade without much harm to the engine like supercharging. You have released the upgraded heads for the 5.7, will the 6.1 heads be available at a later date, or is the increase in hp bad on a the 6.1 engine???

TEAM SRT thanks for time....its very much appreciated.


Adding HP and, more specifically, torque will effect the long term durability of your car so it depends on how you use your car. We don't have upgraded heads for the 6.1 at this time - sorry, but I feel like a politician dancing around your future product questions.

[GLHS837]

Yes, if a moderator or admin has decided it has no bearing on the chats topic. Such as things completely outside of the teams purview.

[Team SRT]

sorry for your trouble with the dealer, but the dealer is the one who can fix the problem. what dealership did you go to ?

[Team SRT]

I have a 300 SRT.. how are some members claiming that they are getting no rubbing/problems using 275/40R20 size tires on the fronts?

And thank you for the TCM TSB of last month.. i love they way its changed my car.. appreciated..

The 275/40 is not a recommended tire size.

[SERBS_HEMI_C]

sorry for your trouble with the dealer, but the dealer is the one who can fix the problem. what dealership did you go to ?


I used to use Bill Kay Chrysler in Naperville Illinois.. but not anymore.. thanks for asking that.. we like you guys to know of the dealer problems also..

[04compg]

Just curous as to how the next SRT4 will compare to the original (1/4 mile and trap).

Will the mopar upgrades available for the next gen SRT4 be able to compete with a stage 2 SRT4?

I'm just trying to find out if I need to start planning my way out of the original, and into the new SRT4.

[all_bran]

One piece of advice from someone who will be karting kids around soon... Build a SRT6 or 8 minivan. I don't care, but I want to get those little buggers to soccer practice ASAP!

Seriously though, I could never drive a minivan, unless it was a bada$$ minivan that could outrun a mustang GT. I think you might be suprised to see how many dads out there would turn to a minivan if it had some juice... and let their wives drive cute little chick cars ie - crossfires & solstices & sky's.

Make it happen, I'm assuming I"ll be in need of one in about 3-4 years...

[Team SRT]

Some owners have claimed a whopping gain of 22 RWHP by simply adding a CAI to the 6.1 engine. Are they dreaming or are their track slips inaccurate? From an engineering standpoint, what's the highest possible hp one could expect to gain with a "perfectly" designed CAI on a 6.1?

A couple of comments:
- Many of the CAI's are not actually CAI. They tend to suck hot air from behind the radiator.
- I would not believe the +22 RWHP figure. Next time someone posts this, ask them: was the ambeint air temperature exactly the same run to run? were the charge temps exactly the same? How much does the RWHP vary if you keep everything the same and simply do 10 runs on the dyno?
- We have found transient dynos to be somewhat innacurate. All of our testing is done at Steady State and corrected to standard conditions.
- The SRT-8 airbox has probably the lowest pressure drop at the airflow demanded by the 6.1L engine at WOT we've ever tested. The stock filter flows very well and keeps crap out of your engine. Many of the aftermarket air filters allow lots of dirt to pass with a very minor increase in flow. Definitely not 22 RWHP worth!

[Team SRT]

What sets shift points the PCM or the TCM or something else altogether

Thanks

TCM makes the decisions based upon input from PCM and ABS data.

[Team SRT]

What are the HP gains expected from the Mopar CAI on the Jeep SRT8?
What are the HP gains expected from the Mopar CAI + Mopar/Corsa Exhaust on the Jeep SRT8?

We don't publish these kinds of numbers mainly because every dyno is different and we don't want to get into a war of words on my dyno versus your dyno etc. Sorry.

[Team SRT]

Thanks for the response--do you have any input on question #2:

2. Will we be able to swape out the 6.1 for the 392--plug and play--or will there be electronics/software issues to overcome? Will there be any support for someone wanting to do a 392 swap?

The 392 should physically fit in place of a 6.1L. As you noted there will be electronic and software issues. We have not tried this before on a production vehicle so I can't comment on exactly what issues you will face.

[SERBS_HEMI_C]

A couple of comments:
- Many of the CAI's are not actually CAI. They tend to suck hot air from behind the radiator.
- I would not believe the +22 RWHP figure. Next time someone posts this, ask them: was the ambeint air temperature exactly the same run to run? were the charge temps exactly the same? How much does the RWHP vary if you keep everything the same and simply do 10 runs on the dyno?
- We have found transient dynos to be somewhat innacurate. All of our testing is done at Steady State and corrected to standard conditions.
- The SRT-8 airbox has probably the lowest pressure drop at the airflow demanded by the 6.1L engine at WOT we've ever tested. The stock filter flows very well and keeps crap out of your engine. Many of the aftermarket air filters allow lots of dirt to pass with a very minor increase in flow. Definitely not 22 RWHP worth!

is the Mopar CAI, an actual CAI..???

[ltdodge]

Adding HP and, more specifically, torque will effect the long term durability of your car so it depends on how you use your car. We don't have upgraded heads for the 6.1 at this time - sorry, but I feel like a politician dancing around your future product questions.

sorry, I didnt mean to ask it as a future product question, more on the lines if I upgrade to P&P heads if there will be any fatal problems like supercharging....

[Team SRT]

Just curous as to how the next SRT4 will compare to the original (1/4 mile and trap).

Will the mopar upgrades available for the next gen SRT4 be able to compete with a stage 2 SRT4?

I'm just trying to find out if I need to start planning my way out of the original, and into the new SRT4.

...and you get one or two style points for trying to rephrase a future product question as a financial planning concern, but we still don't talk about future products. Honest. No matter how you word it. Please.

[Team SRT]

Hi Team SRT...!!!!!
Will there be any changes regarding the exterior color?

We introduced TorRed for the 2007 MY. Can't comment further.

[GLHS837]

Just curous as to how the next SRT4 will compare to the original (1/4 mile and trap).

Will the mopar upgrades available for the next gen SRT4 be able to compete with a stage 2 SRT4?

I'm just trying to find out if I need to start planning my way out of the original, and into the new SRT4.

Which part of future products isnt sinking in here? Please, folks, it just wastes time and space. They know folks want to plan, but they have rules they cant break, no matter how much it would make your planning easier.

[Team SRT]

+

There is absolutely still electronic intervention with "ESP full off". It seems to be some degree of yaw control still active. If slip control and yaw control are fully disengaged, one would be able to make a turn onto a street from a stop, punch it and the car would spin all the way around. The electronics do not allow this in any mode. Is is possible there is still some degree of yaw control in the ESP off mode?

Hmmmm.....We implemented Full ESP-Off mode as a running change in mid-2005. Are you seeing an ESP disabled message and chime when you hold the ESP off button for 3 seconds with the car stationary ? Post (or PM) your VIN and we can verify which level of ESP you have. The early cars only had partial off mode.

[6POINT1]

I'll try again:

Since it hasn't been brought up yet, but I see it all over the forums. What about the front suspension clunk that is prevalent on the LXs? Mine is gettting worse as time goes on and my dealer calls it normal. I know it's much worse now than any other time and I'm starting to notice a chattering when backing out in the morning and turning the wheel.

Is this on your radar?

[Team SRT]

Greets,
I was driving home the other night in stop and go traffic and expierienced a delay in the throttle. I was at a 15MPH coast in "auto" mode, and when I went to accelerate nothing happened. I almost pulled over, but put it into manual mode and throttle came back.
Let me know if this is a known issue or software update related.
2007 Charger SRT8 980 miles on it when it occured. Hasn't happened since.

Car is amazing I love it.

Not aware of this problem. I expect the shift to autostick and throttle returning was coincidental and wouldn't expect this to be tied to the software update. Where any light flashing while this happened? Particularly the ETC light.

[BILLSHOE]

why does car feel like its getting bumped when sitting at light?happens all the time..feels like tranny. i believe its all lxs with this issue

[dlyle]

why does car feel like its getting bumped when sitting at light?happens all the time..feels like tranny

I get the same thing in my Super Bee. Keep looking in the mirror to make sure nobody bumped me. What is it we are feeling? I'm pretty sure I see an RPM change when it happens.

[Team SRT]

Since it hasn't been brought up yet, but I see it all over the forums. What about the front suspension clunk that is prevalent on the LXs? Mine is gettting worse as time goes on and my dealer calls it normal. I know it's much worse now than any other time and I'm starting to notice a chattering when backing out in the morning and turning the wheel.

Is this on your radar?

yes. did you take the car to the dealer to check suspension bolts torque ? can you describe it ?

[Team SRT]

A saw a Charger today with R/T badges on the front and rear and SRT6 badges on the sides behind the front tires. Is there any such thing?

The one you saw must be the only one (hopefully)

[daver40]

My favorite features are the incredible torque of the 6.1 Hemi, fantastic handling of the SRT suspension and the most comfortable performance seat in the the world...so why do you still have an R/T???

:grin: How about you call my wife and ask her?


Seriously, thanks for the response. An SRT is on the wish list.

[Team SRT]

I have a 300 SRT.. how are some members claiming that they are getting no rubbing/problems using 275/40R20 size tires on the fronts?

And thank you for the TCM TSB of last month.. i love they way its changed my car.. appreciated..

We can't officially recommend any tire sizes other than what comes on the vehicle from the factory. However, we can tell you that the Toyo 275/40R20 is a 'narrow' 275, more akin to the width of the SRT8 255 rear F1 Supercar tire. Even the aforementioned factory 255 tire, when installed on the front of the SRT8 vehicles, will make contact during extreme maneuvers at full jounce and rebound. Our One Lap of America 300C entry used 295/25/R20 tires that required extensive fender flaring and suspension modifications to make the wider tires fit. Hope that helps.

[ResumeSpeed]

...The SRT-8 airbox has probably the lowest pressure drop at the airflow demanded by the 6.1L engine at WOT we've ever tested. The stock filter flows very well and keeps crap out of your engine...
This then brings up the question, what about the Mopar brand CAI? Performance-wise and "dirt-wise", am I better off with the stock setup for my Jeep SRT8?

[Hemi31]

yes. did you take the car to the dealer to check suspension bolts torque ? can you describe it ?I have it as well,as do lots of others.It sounds like a bad ball joint.The suspension has been complertely gone through and nobody can find anything wrong.

[6POINT1]

yes. did you take the car to the dealer to check suspension bolts torque ? can you describe it ?

I did take it to the dealer and explained it's a hard hit or thud when going over potholes or manhole covers. It creates a little bump steer too. When backing, it sometimes feels like yor front tires are rolling over marbles and slipping. Dealer said it was normal - I know it's not.

As stated. A lot of people have the same complaint.

[Team SRT]

is the Mopar CAI, an actual CAI..???

Don't have any of the Mopar guys here to answer that one - sorry! Wish we could post a power curve since we like to use data to backup claims. We did run their CAI on the 300C 1-Lap project a while ago and it seemed to make a minor difference. We do extensive testing in Las Vegas, death valley and city traffic to verify performance on the stock parts.

[ccl088]

We saw this only once during development when one of our techs over filled an axle (the fill volume on the 6.1L 215mm rear axle is different than a 5.7L 210mm axle). I would have the dealer drain and re-fill your axle to verify proper volume.

Logical but seems to be a common problem.Could the factory have overfilled a larger number of rearends?
Thanks

[xenophex]

Not aware of this problem. I expect the shift to autostick and throttle returning was coincidental and wouldn't expect this to be tied to the software update. Where any light flashing while this happened? Particularly the ETC light.

I didn't notice any warning lights. Checked the fuel gauge, then tac, applied more pressure to the throttle, and when I got nothing I pulled it into manual mode, and it said it was in 2nd gear. 2 seconds later throttle responded.

When I take it in next I'll see if it threw any error codes.

Thanks,
Mark

[Team SRT]

why does car feel like its getting bumped when sitting at light?happens all the time..feels like tranny. i believe its all lxs with this issue

We have not seen this, honestly. Are you shifting from P to D when this happens? Is it idle shake ? Is is periodic or a one-time thing? Need more info and we can try and help.

[Team SRT]

One piece of advice from someone who will be karting kids around soon... Build a SRT6 or 8 minivan. I don't care, but I want to get those little buggers to soccer practice ASAP!

Seriously though, I could never drive a minivan, unless it was a bada$$ minivan that could outrun a mustang GT. I think you might be suprised to see how many dads out there would turn to a minivan if it had some juice... and let their wives drive cute little chick cars ie - crossfires & solstices & sky's.

Make it happen, I'm assuming I"ll be in need of one in about 3-4 years...

We'll mostly be surprised if you're still married in 4 years if your wife finds out that you talk about "cute little chick cars".... ;)

[westerncharger]

It is popular to add subframe connectors on older Mopars to reduce twist and sag over time.
1. Is the SRT body reinforced over an R/T (like they used to with HEMI cars)?
2. Would we benefit from doing something like this, in your opinion, or are the cars stiffer now from the factory than in the "good old days"?
Thanks for sharing your time.

[Team SRT]

Logical but seems to be a common problem.Could the factory have overfilled a larger number of rearends?
Thanks

Doubt it. They are partially filled during manufacture, drained, and then shipped from Germany to Canada. A computer controlled machine fills the units to a very accurate level.

[Curz]

We have not seen this, honestly. Are you shifting from P to D when this happens? Is it idle shake ? Is is periodic or a one-time thing? Need more info and we can try and help.

Ive also seen this from time to time. It happens when in at a standstill in D.

[BILLSHOE]

We have not seen this, honestly. Are you shifting from P to D when this happens? Is it idle shake ? Is is periodic or a one-time thing? Need more info and we can try and help.

when driving and come to traffic light stopped at idle while foot is on the brake it feels like someone bumps me

[ResumeSpeed]

The WK was brought out with a 20.5 gallon fuel tank in model year 2005. In 2006 they increased the size to 21.1. Now for 2007, and in the diesel equipped models only, the tank is 22 gallons. Is there any particular reason that we can't get a "22" in the SRT? We could sure use it, in fact dual 22's would be perfect for those long road trips!

[Tricster]

I love my CSRT8 by the way. Have absolutely no complaints. I do have a question though. I love my 20+ MPG on my commute to and from work, but when the weather warms up, I will be testing out my times on the track. Being that we have "addaptive learning" in our cars, what would you recommend I do before I goto the track, so it isn't in " interstate cruising " mode.

Thanks in advance

Tricster

[Team SRT]

I did take it to the dealer and explained it's a hard hit or thud when going over potholes or manhole covers. It creates a little bump steer too. When backing, it sometimes feels like yor front tires are rolling over marbles and slipping. Dealer said it was normal - I know it's not.

As stated. A lot of people have the same complaint.

It's tough to diagnose over the internet. But your bumpsteer and marble comment makes us think that you might have an alignment issue as a result of a shifted crossmember or loose joint. We'd suggest going to the dealer and having them check the following:

1) Torque of the lower crossmember bolts
2) Alignment within specs
3) Outer Tie Rod (OTR) Integrity

[04compg]

I hava a stage 2 srt4

1: Going to a 3 inch O2 housing and open 3" Downpipe would there be any Neglible gains from either a) open dump or b) opening and closing dump at will?

If I'm not mistaken, the less the back pressure then the greater the benefit.

[Team SRT]

It is popular to add subframe connectors on older Mopars to reduce twist and sag over time.
1. Is the SRT body reinforced over an R/T (like they used to with HEMI cars)?
2. Would we benefit from doing something like this, in your opinion, or are the cars stiffer now from the factory than in the "good old days"?
Thanks for sharing your time.


The SRTs and RTs have the same structure and adding stiffening would add weight so don't recommend it. The good old days are today!

[DP03]

Hmmmm.....We implemented Full ESP-Off mode as a running change in mid-2005. Are you seeing an ESP disabled message and chime when you hold the ESP off button for 3 seconds with the car stationary ? Post (or PM) your VIN and we can verify which level of ESP you have. The early cars only had partial off mode.

i have an April 06 build. I have the full off option if the button is held down. The first time I noticed this with full off is when I tried to enter the road from a shopping center "swiftly". The tail came out, but then something intervened, felt like fuel cutoff more than brakes. Seems like the car will spin wildly in a straight line with ESP full off, but not as much so in a turn. That's what made me think of partial yaw.....I did lots of tests after this and came up with the same conclusion.

Thanks for your time.

[Curz]

not a question about future products, just a suggestion

we cant be letting Ford come out with a stock stang pushing 500 horses and stand idle..I hope to see a blown SRT8 stock..:smoke: please?

[Team SRT]

when driving and come to traffic light stopped at idle while foot is on the brake it feels like someone bumps me

I wish you lived close to Detroit so we could expereince the issue (yes - we have actually made a few house calls locally for certain things). Have your dealer check the driveshaft center bearing and bolts for anything obvious. Sorry we can't help much.

[HemiGun]

Do the cars that came from the factory with the Eagle RS-A tires have different electronic calibrations (ESP, etc.) than the F1-equiped cars?

[BILLSHOE]

I wish you lived close to Detroit so we could expereince the issue (yes - we have actually made a few house calls locally for certain things). Have your dealer check the driveshaft center bearing and bolts for anything obvious. Sorry we can't help much.

im here in vegas where you test ...haha

[Team SRT]

I love my CSRT8 by the way. Have absolutely no complaints. I do have a question though. I love my 20+ MPG on my commute to and from work, but when the weather warms up, I will be testing out my times on the track. Being that we have "addaptive learning" in our cars, what would you recommend I do before I goto the track, so it isn't in " interstate cruising " mode.

Thanks in advance.

Parlaan

The adaptive learning is much more complex and optimizes engine performance for all rpm and engine load combinations. So even though you're usually on the highway your SRT hasn't forgotten how to run strong anytime you apply a little right foot pressure.

[Team SRT]

The WK was brought out with a 20.5 gallon fuel tank in model year 2005. In 2006 they increased the size to 21.1. Now for 2007, and in the diesel equipped models only, the tank is 22 gallons. Is there any particular reason that we can't get a "22" in the SRT? We could sure use it, in fact dual 22's would be perfect for those long road trips!

Ouch! I don't believe the bigger tank(s) would fit due to exhaust packaging.

[ccl088]

Doubt it. They are partially filled during manufacture, drained, and then shipped from Germany to Canada. A computer controlled machine fills the units to a very accurate level.

I thought it might be assembled in that manner.I am going to add a rubber hose to the vent like some people are doing with an enclosed filter(fuel filter) and attach to the frame above the housing for a few days and see if the leak will stop.If it does not stop,then it will be something leaking elsewhere.
Thanks

[Team SRT]

i have an April 06 build. I have the full off option is the button is held down. The first time I noticed this with full off is when I tried to enter the road from a shopping center "swiftly". The tail came out, but then something intervened, felt like fuel cutoff more than brakes. Seems like the car will spin wildly in a straight line with ESP full off, but not as much so in a turn. That's what made me think of partial yaw.....

Thanks for your time.

The only thing I can think of right now is that maybe as the car was yaw-ing the trans was looking for an upshift (1-2) and the shift torque management felt like an ESP intervention to you. Will think about this some more and go do donuts in the parking lot after we get out of this stuffy conference room !

[srt8fish]

I wish you lived close to Detroit so we could expereince the issue (yes - we have actually made a few house calls locally for certain things). Have your dealer check the driveshaft center bearing and bolts for anything obvious. Sorry we can't help much.

I've had this same issue for months. I'll be sitting at the light, foot on the brake, and it feels like the car gets bumped forward. It freaks my wife out everytime. I thought I was maybe letting off on the brake but after numerous times, it's the car.

[Team SRT]

Do the cars that came from the factory with the Eagle RS-A tires have different electronic calibrations (ESP, etc.) than the F1-equiped cars?

Nope, the calibration is common to both tires.

[Hemi_SRT8]

Sorry...I got in late and haven't had chance to read all the questions...and wanted to get one in before it ends.

Are the 6.1L cam specifications correct in the service manual...i.e.
duration 283/286 at 0.006"
valve lift 0.571/0.551
overlap 50 degrees

Thanks,
Keith

[Team SRT]

i have an April 06 build. I have the full off option is the button is held down. The first time I noticed this with full off is when I tried to enter the road from a shopping center "swiftly". The tail came out, but then something intervened, felt like fuel cutoff more than brakes. Seems like the car will spin wildly in a straight line with ESP full off, but not as much so in a turn. That's what made me think of partial yaw.....

Thanks for your time.

Are you positive you are not in partial mode? Refer to pgs. 105-107 in the 2006MY owners manual for the full details, but it sounds like you might be in the intermediate mode. The reconfigurable in the cluster should show "ESP OFF". Most of us have been 'spanked' by our senior managers for leaving donuts in our employee parking lot... so we know it can be done!!!

[Team SRT]

Do the cars that came from the factory with the Eagle RS-A tires have different electronic calibrations (ESP, etc.) than the F1-equiped cars?

same calibration

[RobAGD]

The "bump" while in D is a slight surge/stumble in engine RPM, I have had it since day 1, on one of my dealer visits they flashed the ECM up but didnt do any real testing.

As a suggestion would you think that maybe monitoring the TPS, the PPS would show something ? Is the a known testing methodolgy (sp) that I can give my dealer to check it out ?

So far I have not been real impressed with the technical skills of the 3 differnt dealers i have used in my area :/

Thanks

-R

Since you cant discuss future products how about winning lottery numbers ?

:D

[Team SRT]

I've had this same issue for months. I'll be sitting at the light, foot on the brake, and it feels like the car gets bumped forward. It freaks my wife out everytime. I thought I was maybe letting off on the brake but after numerous times, it's the car.

We believe you and will look into it. Will post something next time we chat.

[nhdave]

yes. did you take the car to the dealer to check suspension bolts torque ? can you describe it ?

I have it as well,as do lots of others.It sounds like a bad ball joint.The suspension has been complertely gone through and nobody can find anything wrong.

I have taken mine to the dealer as well and they replaced the tension strut and sway bushings. They are basically htrowing up their hands saying they don't know what it is and that they have called the tech center and they don't know either.

[rcs8104]

What has come of the software fix for transfer case on Jeeps on the 1 to 2 shift and getting clunking sound.

Also, is there an issue with brakes on '07 models as mine have been squelling since I pick it up from dealer.

Why was the TCM fix only for 2006 models of Jeep and not the 2007.

[Tricster]

Are you positive you are not in partial mode? Refer to pgs. 105-107 in the 2006MY owners manual for the full details, but it sounds like you might be in the intermediate mode. The reconfigurable in the cluster should show "ESP OFF". Most of us have been 'spanked' by our senior managers for leaving donuts in our employee parking lot... so we know it can be done!!!

Mine says "ESP Deactivated". Hope that's the same thing.

[MrMorgan]

I use Auto Stick a lot, like all the time. I have a terrible habit of trying to make the car sound like a manual when accelerating, meaning I lift on the throttle just after sellecting the next higher gear. I'm having no problems with the car, but:

A) Am I hurting my transmission?
B) Has the adaptive nature of HAL taken this type of driving into account?

[Team SRT]

The "bump" while in D is a slight surge/stumble in engine RPM, I have had it since day 1, on one of my dealer visits they flashed the ECM up but didnt do any real testing.

As a suggestion would you think that maybe monitoring the TPS, the PPS would show something ? Is the a known testing methodolgy (sp) that I can give my dealer to check it out ?

So far I have not been real impressed with the technical skills of the 3 differnt dealers i have used in my area :/

Thanks

-R

Since you cant discuss future products how about winning lottery numbers ?

:D

Winning lottery numbers are in the paper every day! (for yesterday) :grin:

[srt8fish]

We believe you and will look into it. Will post something next time we chat.

Sounds good my friend. I think it's great you guys are on here.

[Team SRT]

I hava a stage 2 srt4

1: Going to a 3 inch O2 housing and open 3" Downpipe would there be any Neglible gains from either a) open dump or b) opening and closing dump at will?

If I'm not mistaken, the less the back pressure then the greater the benefit.

Less backpressure usually means more power but not always. Most engines like some amount or backpressure and the 6.1L is no exception. Without testing your parts on an accurate dyno who knows ?

OOps - just realized you have a SRT-4. Less backpressure after the turbo (an open dump) will make more power.

DUH - sorry !

[DP03]

Are you positive you are not in partial mode? Refer to pgs. 105-107 in the 2006MY owners manual for the full details, but it sounds like you might be in the intermediate mode. The reconfigurable in the cluster should show "ESP OFF". Most of us have been 'spanked' by our senior managers for leaving donuts in our employee parking lot... so we know it can be done!!!


Yup, I'm positive. But thanks for the response. I'm not the only one to notice this. There's an aftermarket company that has sold many a switch to resolve this issue :)

[Charger R/T]

This is a 5.7 question, on a scale of 1 to 10 how strong is the bottom end on a 5.7.

[HemiGun]

Are the SRT engineers involved in the design of Mopar parts like the CAI and Catback?

[Team SRT]

The "bump" while in D is a slight surge/stumble in engine RPM, I have had it since day 1, on one of my dealer visits they flashed the ECM up but didnt do any real testing.

As a suggestion would you think that maybe monitoring the TPS, the PPS would show something ? Is the a known testing methodolgy (sp) that I can give my dealer to check it out ?

So far I have not been real impressed with the technical skills of the 3 differnt dealers i have used in my area :/

Thanks

-R

Since you cant discuss future products how about winning lottery numbers ?

:D

Without being able to see the car I'd recommend having the dealer install a StarMobile datalogger that can capture information we'd need to diagnose remotely. If this is something you can easily duplicate the dealer shouldn't have a problem doing this.

[all_bran]

Less backpressure usually means more power but not always. Most engines like some amount or backpressure and the 6.1L is no exception. Without testing your parts on an accurate dyno who knows ?

OOps - just realized you have a SRT-4. Less backpressure after the turbo (an open dump) will make more power.

DUH - sorry !

But on a stock turbo, it's almost negligable. Just go with a 3" O2 housing, 3" DP, and a mopar cat-back. On a stock turbo, this will yield as much power at a 3" turbo-back and close enough to a 3" dump...

[Team SRT]

This is a 5.7 question, on a scale of 1 to 10 how strong is the bottom end on a 5.7.

...and this is SRT, so we deal in the 6.1L! We can't address components that aren't ours.

[HEMEEE]

This is a 5.7 question, on a scale of 1 to 10 how strong is the bottom end on a 5.7.

Once again...

Sorry but we truly do not have any experience with the 5.7L engines.

[Team SRT]

I use Auto Stick a lot, like all the time. I have a terrible habit of trying to make the car sound like a manual when accelerating, meaning I lift on the throttle just after sellecting the next higher gear. I'm having no problems with the car, but:

A) Am I hurting my transmission?
B) Has the adaptive nature of HAL taken this type of driving into account?

We have not tried that, psudo-manual-morgan! We can take a look. The trans is very adept at protecting itself and essentially takes over the throttle (and fuel and spark) during shifts. Moving the throttle may confuse the trans and cause it to hunt around since throttle position is an input for shift shcedules.

I doubt this affects the adaptives.

We learn something about out customers every day, that is for sure.

[Team SRT]

I have taken mine to the dealer as well and they replaced the tension strut and sway bushings. They are basically htrowing up their hands saying they don't know what it is and that they have called the tech center and they don't know either.

Send us a private message with your VIN and we'll look into your service history and see what the dealers tried so far. If we can get your problem taken care of, then we might be able to post a global response for the entire community.

[Hemi_SRT8]

Sorry...I got in late and haven't had chance to read all the questions...and wanted to get one in before it ends.

Are the 6.1L cam specifications correct in the service manual...i.e.
duration 283/286 at 0.006"
valve lift 0.571/0.551
overlap 50 degrees

Thanks,
Keith

If this is not correct, please give us the correct specifications.

Thanks for joining us.

Keith

[ResumeSpeed]

An issue with motor mounts was brought up on one of the Jeep forums today:

"The motor mounts on ALL our SRT8's have to be the worst designed mount I have ever seen for a performance car. They are U brackets with the U facing up not your usual O bracket with the bolt thru the middle... and seeing the Jeep has the most low end torque WE are more at risk then the other SRT8's we make the most torque at WOT from a dead standstill..."

Have you heard of any issues with the SRT8 motor mounts?

[Team SRT]

But on a stock turbo, it's almost negligable. Just go with a 3" O2 housing, 3" DP, and a mopar cat-back. On a stock turbo, this will yield as much power at a 3" turbo-back and close enough to a 3" dump...

Ethan is not here to answer that one, but I'll fwd the question. I'm pretty sure we ran that combination at some point in time. We tested a lot of hardware to support SCCA Rally, Road Racing and the stage kits.

[yubyub]

Today, on my drive home, I noticed that my engine temp (according to the EVIC) was 217 degrees. I've never seen it over 212 - it usually hangs at 208. I know you guys have said that the SRTs have a VERY robust cooling system - but is 217 considered in the range of expected/normal?

[Team SRT]

Are the SRT engineers involved in the design of Mopar parts like the CAI and Catback?

Most of the Mopar, Motorsports and SRT folks are all in this location.

[Hemi31]

If this is not correct, please give us the correct specifications.
Are the 6.1L cam specifications correct in the service manual...i.e.
duration 283/286 at 0.006"
valve lift 0.571/0.551
overlap 50 degrees

Thanks for joining us.

Keith
And if it is correct do you know the specs @.050?

[Black One]

Just want to compliment you folks on one fine automobile. I get a grin from ear to ear when I even think about driving it. I also appreciate your time in answering questions about problems, performance and tuning. And for the record I quit calling the Crossfire a "chick car" after having the pleasure to throw it around the corkscrew at the Laguna Seca SRT Track Experience. If I didn't have my heart set on a Viper I would love to have one parked right next to the Charger. How 'bout a vid on those donuts in the parking lot?

[MENACE]

Thanks for answering our questions TeamSRT. Please keep investigating the Jeep brake problem. :grin:

[MarylandSRT8]

Hey thanks guys for your time tonight. Put the Headlight Flicker issue on a list please. Take care!!!

[nhdave]

Send us a private message with your VIN and we'll look into your service history and see what the dealers tried so far. If we can get your problem taken care of, then we might be able to post a global response for the entire community.

Info PM'd

Thanks!

[RedRocket]

Do you know how many of each color srt8 charger were built each year?

If so then how many Inferno Red Srt8 Chargers were built in 06? I want to know how many people have a beautiful like mine!

[Team SRT]

An issue with motor mounts was brought up on one of the Jeep forums today:

"The motor mounts on ALL our SRT8's have to be the worst designed mount I have ever seen for a performance car. They are U brackets with the U facing up not your usual O bracket with the bolt thru the middle... and seeing the Jeep has the most low end torque WE are more at risk then the other SRT8's we make the most torque at WOT from a dead standstill..."

Have you heard of any issues with the SRT8 motor mounts?

What is your issue with the mounts ? This is one of the parts on the WK SRT-8 that we actually never failed during all of our testing. They may seem basic to the casual observer, but there is acutally a lot of science (location, angle relative to the powertrain, preload rates in various directions, durometer) behind them.

The upward facing receiver in the chassis is for manufacturg reasons so the plant can run at a high line rate. As long as the bolt is tight, the system is bulletproof. We have never had one loosen.

[Team SRT]

Do you know how many of each color srt8 charger were built each year?

If so then how many Inferno Red Srt8 Chargers were built in 06? I want to know how many people have a beautiful like mine!

Stay tuned. We are compiling that information now and will publish it shortly.

[Team SRT]

Today, on my drive home, I noticed that my engine temp (according to the EVIC) was 217 degrees. I've never seen it over 212 - it usually hangs at 208. I know you guys have said that the SRTs have a VERY robust cooling system - but is 217 considered in the range of expected/normal?

217 F is normal. 217 C is not.

Under heavy loading (track testing, aggressive auto crossing, Tail-of-the-Dragon, Mt. Palomar, etc) Temps in the 230-240 deg F can be expected.

[Phantom]

Can you tell me why I can not get my Charger to Burn Rubber like in the brochures. If I kinda power brake, it kinda hesitates before it takes off.

[yubyub]

217 F is normal. 217 C is not.

Under heavy loading (track testing, aggressive auto crossing, Tail-of-the-Dragon, Mt. Palomar, etc) Temps in the 230-240 deg F can be expected.
Good to know, thanks. I also noticed that I was idling around 600 RPMs at this point, where as I usually idle around 670 or so... Interresting.

[HEMEEE]

*************************
No more NEW questions...

The thread will remain open for as long as the Team wishes to continue earlier questions.
All questions after this post will be removed - Please save them for the next session...

Thank you for understanding-

[Team SRT]

Good to know, thanks. I also noticed that I was idling around 600 RPMs at this point, where as I usually idle around 670 or so... Interresting.

600rpm is common if the a/c is off and line pressures are down (normal), 670 is typical with a/c on.

[Team SRT]

Can you tell me why I can not get my Charger to Burn Rubber like in the brochures. If I kinda power brake, it kinda hesitates before it takes off.

Since your Charger's not an SRT, we couldn't say what it is (or isn't) doing. Smoky burnouts with the SRT8 happen right along the donuts in our parking lot...

[MrMorgan]

We have not tried [manual shifting] psudo-manual-morgan!
You are not having fun with the car then. With long tube headers and magnaflow exhaust, the growl between gears is addictive. :)
We learn something about out customers every day, that is for sure.
We are an odd lot, aren't we. In a few months it will be a 6 speed, so don't go to to much trouble looking into this.

Mr "Pseudo-Manual" Morgan

[Team SRT]

And if it is correct do you know the specs @.050?

We will confirm and get back to you ASAP.

[Team SRT]

What sets shift points the PCM or the TCM or something else altogether

Thanks

The shift schedules are in the TCM.

[Team SRT]

Just want to compliment you folks on one fine automobile. I get a grin from ear to ear when I even think about driving it. I also appreciate your time in answering questions about problems, performance and tuning. And for the record I quit calling the Crossfire a "chick car" after having the pleasure to throw it around the corkscrew at the Laguna Seca SRT Track Experience. If I didn't have my heart set on a Viper I would love to have one parked right next to the Charger. How 'bout a vid on those donuts in the parking lot?

You can check out a video of the One Lap of America 300C.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0qAGfLBfmA&mode=related&search=

[Team SRT]

Thank you.So theoreticaly(sorry to be a pita)I should be able to take apart a CV Joint and use an RT Stub on an SRT axle?

Doubt it. The CV joints are not compatible. Totally different in size and style. Not even the same manufacturer.

[Team SRT]

*************************
No more NEW questions...

The thread will remain open for as long as the Team wishes to continue earlier questions.
All questions after this post will be removed - Please save them for the next session...

Thank you for understanding-

OK Hemeee I think we've gotten all that we were working on. thanks for everything and we'll see you again next month.

[HEMEEE]

OK Hemeee I think we've gotten all that we were working on. thanks for everything and we'll see you again next month.Thanks again guys for your incredible dedication... see ya soon!!