$3,000 Budget: Best $$ / HP Options

[RTaddiction]

OK - here's the scenario...

I've got most of the easy, low-cost mods checked off: K&N CAI, 180 T-stat, SC Tuner, Brylcreem Exhaust, ESP Mod. Now that I've got a little play $$ (roughly $2.5-3K) I'm trying to come up with the best mod combo that will yield the lowest cost per added RWHP (best bang for the buck). My goal with this upgrade is pure power gains and lower RPM gains are preferred.

My requirements are:

Keep MDS enabled
No drone (beyond what little I currently have w/ 'creem exhaust)
No idle issues
Due to time / space / tool / mechanical aptitude deficiencies, any upgrades outside of a CAI will have to be done at a shop, so all labor costs in this excercise need to be included
Total costs including all parts and labor needs to be less than $3K.
Not concerned about the warranty is I already have 28K on her and will be outside of my warrantly before summer

Up until now I've been thinking I would do headers and catback. An example calc for this scenario would be:

Cost of headers (Mopar LT): ~$1,000
Cost of catback (Zoomers or Corsa): ~$1,000
Labor cost (install headers and catback): ~$800
Total cost = $2,800 (before tax, shipping)
Projected hp gains: ~20 RWHP

Cost per rwhp = $2,800 / 20 hp = $140 / RWHP

$140 / RWHP is really lousy in my mind if you're just loooking for power improvements. I like the sound of the exhaust right now and the LT Headers are only going to make it better. From that perspective a catback is a lousy investment for a pure power gain goal.

I'm interested to see what everyone else would recommend. Math out your scenario, including all part and realistic labor costs and projected power gains. Then, come up with your $$ / RWHP projection. I've got an idea of the best combo but want to see everyone else's recommendation 1st...

[Glock22]

Get rid of your cat's. (will make the car louder but your looking at around 10rwhp for $50)

Get a B&G tune.

Those will be your best bang for the buck.

[NYT]

mopar headers are junk. i would forget about them.

i would look into getting the heads done up. ppp has a great price on em.

[RTaddiction]

Get rid of your cat's. (will make the car louder but your looking at around 10rwhp for $50)

Get a B&G tune.

Those will be your best bang for the buck.

Has anyone done a B&G on an RT and have any measured performance data after? I see a lot of guys doing the B&G on SRT's but not many on uncammed RT's. Also, I've already got the SC 91 tune. How much more power do you think B&G can make over the SC 91 tune? I wouldn't guess it would be a huge difference.

$50 for 10 rwhp for the cat delete would be GREAT hp for the $$. Are you suggesting replacing it with straight pipes? Don't know if my conscious could live with completely emliminating the cats... Also wouldn't like the resultant annoying CEL's.

[BLKCHARGER]

Has anyone done a B&G on an RT and have any measured performance data after? I see a lot of guys doing the B&G on SRT's but not many on uncammed RT's.

$50 for 10 rwhp for the cat delete would be GREAT hp for the $$. Are you suggesting replacing it with straight pipes? Don't know if my conscious could live with completely emliminating the cats... Also wouldn't like the resultant annoying CEL's.

If you install O2 sensor simulators, you won't get any CELs. If you keep your car maintained correctly you will still be able to pass emissions after the car has warmed up.

[RTaddiction]

mopar headers are junk. i would forget about them.

How 'bout some more info here. I don't see bad reviews on the mopars too often. Everyone I've spoken to that have them are very happy. Saw one poor review on lxforums due to an early misalignment issue. Other than that, I see nothing but good things.

i would look into getting the heads done up. ppp has a great price on em.

I haven't seen any info on projected gains on heads alone for the 5.7. Got any idea what it would be?

[NYT]

the collectors are small, the build is cheap. almost no significant hp increase.

a head and cam package from dynamic racing will net you 60+ hp.

[Glock22]

Has anyone done a B&G on an RT and have any measured performance data after? I see a lot of guys doing the B&G on SRT's but not many on uncammed RT's. Also, I've already got the SC 91 tune. How much more power do you think B&G can make over the SC 91 tune? I wouldn't guess it would be a huge difference.

$50 for 10 rwhp for the cat delete would be GREAT hp for the $$. Are you suggesting replacing it with straight pipes? Don't know if my conscious could live with completely emliminating the cats... Also wouldn't like the resultant annoying CEL's.


The fact that it gets rid of TQ managment is what will make a huge difference. Peak HP means nothing.

Yes, replace the cats with straight pipe. Perhaps the guys who do the B&G tune can disable the 420 & 430 codes.

[FastMatt]

doing heads/cam and leaving the stock manifolds and Exhaust will net you 3 times the power gain of doing headers/exhaust for about the same price.

[RTaddiction]

doing heads/cam and leaving the stock manifolds and Exhaust will net you 3 times the power gain of doing headers/exhaust for about the same price.

This is one of the better options I'm looking at:

Cost of DR Heads / 260 Cam: $1,999
Labor to install: ~$1,000
Total cost: $2,999 (w/o shipping, tax)
Projected hp gains: ~50 RWHP (maybe a bit conservative)

Cost per RWHP = $2,999 / 50 hp = $60 / RWHP

That's MUCH better than the header / catback combo which would be $140 / RWHP. IMO, anytime you get down well below $100 / RWHP, you've got a very good deal.

[Dan]

If you install O2 sensor simulators, you won't get any CELs. If you keep your car maintained correctly you will still be able to pass emissions after the car has warmed up.

But then that adds to the cost and hurts the $/hp. I haven't found any cheap O2 sensor simulators.

[Dan]

This is one of the better options I'm looking at:

Cost of DR Heads / 260 Cam: $1,999
Labor to install: ~$1,000
Total cost: $2,999 (w/o shipping, tax)
Projected hp gains: ~50 RWHP (maybe a bit conservative)

Cost per RWHP = $2,999 / 50 hp = $60 / RWHP

That's MUCH better than the header / catback combo which would be $140 / RWHP. IMO, anytime you get down well below $100 / RWHP, you've got a very good deal.

I think that's going to easily be your best option since you're not worried about warranty issues. I've only got 6k miles on mine so I'll probably opt for the headers and mids route for now. If you decide against MDS then your $/hp will really go up but you might need to incur the cost of a B&G flash or something to help the idle.

[T-Rex]

RTaddiction,
I've been through this exact thought process and here's what I'm doing:
ZEX™ Charger/Magnum Nitrous System. The system plus electric opener, programmable window switch, regulator, bottle warmer, blow down tube and installation is costing me just under $2K. I could probably do the install myself and shave about $500 off that cost but I don't have the time so I'm having it done at a local speed shop.

I have read though this forum thread and feel 100% comfortable with safety of the car and myself even though I've never used nitrous before: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=40535

Advertised increase in HP is 75 to 100 and about a 1 sec drop in 1/4 mile times.

Cost per RWHP = $2,000 / 75 hp = $27 / RWHP

Check out this URL: http://www.zex.com/ and click on new products.

Good luck on your quest!!!

[RTaddiction]

I think that's going to easily be your best option since you're not worried about warranty issues. I've only got 6k miles on mine so I'll probably opt for the headers and mids route for now. If you decide against MDS then your $/hp will really go up but you might need to incur the cost of a B&G flash or something to help the idle.

It's one of the better options I've found so far. The other route I'm looking at is cam + headers. I know everyone prefers to do cams and heads at the same time and everyone says how you don't get the full benefit of a cam w/o the heads. However, the total package cost is less:

Cost of 260 Cam + Springs: $540
Labor to install Cam+ Springs: ~$600
Cost of Mopar LT Headers: $1,000
Labor to install headers: $350
Total cost: $2,490 (w/o shipping, tax)
Projected hp gains: ~40-45 RWHP

Cost per RWHP = $2,490 / 40 hp = $62.25 / RWHP

[NYT]

it comes down to what you want. if you want your car to SOUND like it has a lot of hp, go headers and exhaust. if you want your car to HAVE a lot of hp, go heads and cam. its a lot cheaper getting them both done at the same time than getting one, then the other.

[RTaddiction]

Cost per RWHP = $2,000 / 75 hp = $27 / RWHP


That's just about unbeatable in terms of $$ / RWHP and is an option I've thought about. Cons to me are: constant bottle filling, another switch to mount somewhere, a bottle to watch our for in the trunk. Bottom line is that I guess I'm looking for something more permanent and elegant.

You're absolutely right though, cheapest HP you can buy...

[RTaddiction]

Start with this and then move forward after you install all of these parts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JBA-Charger-Magnum-300C-HEMI-5-7-ULTIMATE-POWER-PACKAGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33631QQihZ012QQ itemZ220067624471QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

50 HP from CAI + headers and catback?? Someone's dreaming... K&N's claim of 20 rwhp from their CAI is probably the biggest bold-face lie of any other I've seen on this forum. Did that before I knew any better.

As I understand the JBA catback has some pretty nasty drone too. I'm trying to avoid that at all possible costs - I spend ~80% of my driving time on the highway.

[Dan]

Start with this and then move forward after you install all of these parts.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/JBA-Charger-Magnum-300C-HEMI-5-7-ULTIMATE-POWER-PACKAGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33631QQihZ012QQ itemZ220067624471QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

In his first post he says he doesn't want any drone or extra noise. Plus he's already got a KN CAI. The JBA catback would be louder on the inside. It's definitely a more cost effective way than with the $1k exhaust systems though.

JBA exhaust $400
JBA headers $400 (uncoated)
JBA midpipes $400
Install $800 (your quote)
$2000 total

He'd get an extra performance part (midpipes) and slightly more hp for much cheaper.

[Dan]

50 HP from CAI + headers and catback?? Someone's dreaming... K&N's claim of 20 rwhp from their CAI is probably the biggest bold-face lie of any other I've seen on this forum. Did that before I knew any better.

As I understand the JBA catback has some pretty nasty drone too. I'm trying to avoid that at all possible costs - I spend ~80% of my driving time on the highway.

I personally wouldn't refer to it as "nasty". On the freeway it sounds like the engine purring away. Something you didn't hear before. I personally don't find it offensive and I've taken 2+ hour trips so far with it, with the old lady, and the kids. I have thought about adding electric cutouts though to make it louder when I want.

[RTaddiction]

I personally wouldn't refer to it as "nasty". On the freeway it sounds like the engine purring away. Something you didn't hear before. I personally don't find it offensive and I've taken 2+ hour trips so far with it, with the old lady, and the kids. I have thought about adding electric cutouts though to make it louder when I want.

I guess the only ones that I consider to be little or no drone are Corsa and Zoomers but that's only based on opinions only. It could be that the JBA's are similar too - I've just never heard them personally...

[Dan]

I'm not saying they're as quiet as the Corsa/Zoomers systems (based on what I've read and my experience with the JBA) but I'm just saying to me it's a good sound, a performance sound. When I think of drone I think of something mind-numbingly annoying.

[Glock22]

RTaddiction,
I've been through this exact thought process and here's what I'm doing:
ZEX™ Charger/Magnum Nitrous System. The system plus electric opener, programmable window switch, regulator, bottle warmer, blow down tube and installation is costing me just under $2K. I could probably do the install myself and shave about $500 off that cost but I don't have the time so I'm having it done at a local speed shop.

I have read though this forum thread and feel 100% comfortable with safety of the car and myself even though I've never used nitrous before: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=40535

Advertised increase in HP is 75 to 100 and about a 1 sec drop in 1/4 mile times.

Cost per RWHP = $2,000 / 75 hp = $27 / RWHP

Check out this URL: http://www.zex.com/ and click on new products.

Good luck on your quest!!!
Not quite, ZEX systems are rated at the crank (thats why they are so "safe") all other nitrous systems are rated at the wheels.

You are probably looking at +55-60hp at the rear wheels with a 75 shot. @60rwhp you're looking at $33/rwhp + the cost of refills.

[RTaddiction]

Not quite, ZEX systems are rated at the crank (thats why they are so "safe") all other nitrous systems are rated at the wheels.

You are probably looking at +55-60hp at the rear wheels with a 75 shot. @60rwhp you're looking at $33/rwhp + the cost of refills.

$33 / RWHP is still VERY cheap HP if you don't mind getting it from a bottle...

[FastMatt]

$33 / RWHP is still VERY cheap HP if you don't mind getting it from a bottle...

yes it is, only problem with NOS is you are just making power pmts, to the tune of $4 a lb... I had NOS on my 2000 Viper GTS ACR, I ran 60 lb of NOS threw it in the 1st 4 days, after that it was ~50 lb a month some times more...

[Glock22]

yes it is, only problem with NOS is you are just making power pmts, to the tune of $4 a lb... I had NOS on my 2000 Viper GTS ACR, I ran 60 lb of NOS threw it in the 1st 4 days, after that it was ~50 lb a month some times more...

YIKES!

[Dan]

yes it is, only problem with NOS is you are just making power pmts, to the tune of $4 a lb... I had NOS on my 2000 Viper GTS ACR, I ran 60 lb of NOS threw it in the 1st 4 days, after that it was ~50 lb a month some times more...

Wow I can't imagine using that much. For me it'd be for the track or those few instances on the street where it could come in handy. But yeah, I'd rather have heads/cams and get it always.

[KSTYLEZ]

In his first post he says he doesn't want any drone or extra noise. Plus he's already got a KN CAI. The JBA catback would be louder on the inside. It's definitely a more cost effective way than with the $1k exhaust systems though.

JBA exhaust $400
JBA headers $400 (uncoated)
JBA midpipes $400
Install $800 (your quote)
$2000 total

He'd get an extra performance part (midpipes) and slightly more hp for much cheaper.

It looks to me like the package does come with the mids...

[Dan]

It looks to me like the package does come with the mids...

Actually I was referring to his initial post but I still messed up and forgot that the Mopars come with cats. Regardless, it's a lot cheaper but it won't be whisper quiet like stock.

[outlaw's charger]

IMHO the jba's aren't nasty... there is some drone but to me thats the sound of power and I love it... it's a little hard to tell all the exhuast I listen to online were through sound clips. so a little hard to get that real sound. but for the money there damn well worth it.... before the track opens again in the spring I should have the jba's shorties (headers) and mid pipes... I say no matter what you will have a great running car because you seem to have a lot of great combo ideas. and picking the right combo matters most... good luck....... chris

[Scottwoos06RT]

[QUOTE=NYT;471023]mopar headers are junk. i would forget about them.



Them sounds like fightn' words:monster:

Got Hemi, go MOPAR! anything else is just a wanna be substitute

[Charger R/T]

100 HP for $700.00=$14.00 per hP----NOS, If you got it, spray it!!

[RTaddiction]

After doing a little more research, I may be leaning towards a cam / headers scenario now. Hemi~C~ (here and on LXforums) is one of the few sub 13 sec 5.7 LXers right now and is doing it w/ stock heads:

Hemi~C~ Sig:
__________________
Best 1/4 (300C 5.7) 12.83 @ 105.79, 60' 1.812
Comp Cam XFI 260
Supermaxx LT headers/high flow cats, Corsa Exhaust
S/C controller, Shorty plug wires
BFG DR 245/40/18

Also see post #34 below:
http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28260&page=4

Granted he's doing these on the east coast at basically Sea Level but that's some GREAT performance on just cam/headers/catback/SC/DR's. I gotta think that's probably the best bang for the buck setup I've seen yet. I'm not seeking 12 sec 1/4's but since he's doing so well, I'm may tailor future mods off that setup.

The 260 Cam appears to be the highest performing MDS cam that is essentially plug-and-play and has very good driveability. After doing the cam-only upgrade, Hemi~C~ reported a drop of 0.3-0.35 in the 1/4 mile. Very impressive...

[RTaddiction]

Here's another very interesting find... This is the best before and after Dyno I've found so far which highlights gains made from: 1. stock to headers and 2. headers + catback. Thanks much to maneval69 for these dyno plots...

On the first plot, it shows the gains from stock to headers (Dynatech's). Check out the HUGE mid-range gains at 3.5K RPM - gains here of ~28 hp! Also note the very little gains at high RPM's - basically negligible gains here.

On the second plot after the addition of the catback (Bassini's), mid-range power shows little gains but there are very substantial gains at high RPM, likely attributed to the larger pipe diameter and better flow without the stock reso's.

When I first saw this plot some time ago, I thought the green line labeled 'Best cat headers' was with the addition of high-flow cats on the headers. However, after talking with maneval69, I realized that it was the Bassini catback gains. Unfortunately for me, I've been dismissing the gains from the catback as minimal but this plot demonstrates that an updated catback plays a good role in high RPM range power improvements with headers present.

For me, I'm currently more concerned about low-to-mid range power improvements first. From what I can tell, the best bang-for-the-buck gains in low and mid-range hp (for under $3K) is a 260 cam and headers. A catback is out of my budget range right now, so I'll put that on my future to-do list when I'm looking for the high RPM power gains.

Opinions? I'm quite sure there will be a couple... :grin:

[1Badass R/T]

I thought I'd add a little helper when it comes to drone. There is a product out some might be familiar with called dynamat. it is a sound deading material that greatly reduces exterior noise. It's the best there is. alot of professionals use it with car stereos but can be used to keep out any unwanted noise. It is great for just regular driving to make it alot more quiet for either conversation or to make your existing stereo seem alot better.

so one really can have the awesome exhaust sound that we all love to hear without driving you crazy with drone inside the car....

I just recently purchased some off ebay for $126 shipped (buy it now price) for a bulk kit that is enough to do an entire car. ( 9 sheets = 36 square ft.)

my 2 cents

[Glock22]

I thought I'd add a little helper when it comes to drone. There is a product out some might be familiar with called dynamat. it is a sound deading material that greatly reduces exterior noise. It's the best there is. alot of professionals use it with car stereos but can be used to keep out any unwanted noise. It is great for just regular driving to make it alot more quiet for either conversation or to make your existing stereo seem alot better.

so one really can have the awesome exhaust sound that we all love to hear without driving you crazy with drone inside the car....

I just recently purchased some off ebay for $126 shipped (buy it now price) for a bulk kit that is enough to do an entire car. ( 9 sheets = 36 square ft.)

my 2 cents

Just remember, every 10lbs counter acts 1RWHP. I challenge you to notice a difference in "drone" with real dynamat much less the fake thin crap they sell on ebay.

If you dont want your car to be loud, leave it stock.

[Charger R/T]

I thought I'd add a little helper when it comes to drone. There is a product out some might be familiar with called dynamat. it is a sound deading material that greatly reduces exterior noise. It's the best there is. alot of professionals use it with car stereos but can be used to keep out any unwanted noise. It is great for just regular driving to make it alot more quiet for either conversation or to make your existing stereo seem alot better.

so one really can have the awesome exhaust sound that we all love to hear without driving you crazy with drone inside the car....

I just recently purchased some off ebay for $126 shipped (buy it now price) for a bulk kit that is enough to do an entire car. ( 9 sheets = 36 square ft.)

my 2 cents To me that would be like riding my Harley Fatboy with ear plugs.

[1Badass R/T]

I'm not saying that i personally don't like the sound... hell i love it.... but I was just trying to offer a solution to some that might want to decrease the sound in the car.

As far as weight... I agree that it makes a difference but to each is there own... some might not care that they lose 1 or 1.5 rwhp if it is nice and quiet.

and as far as the cheap crap... i agree. I bought the real dynamat and it is awesome. I have used it before. Go to a local stereo shop and ask them about it and tell them you want to hear the difference in a car with dynamat. you will be amazed.

The harley anology is pretty good... lmao

[NYT]

Them sounds like fightn' words:monster:

Got Hemi, go MOPAR! anything else is just a wanna be substitute

im sorry if you bought those junk headers scott. if i were you i would swap them with dynatech or kooks. i had to return mine back to the dealer once i saw how bad the build quality was.

[RTaddiction]

Bunch 'o thread hijackers...:confused:

Anyhow, I've decided to start down the path of the headers / cam upgrade and begin with the Kooks headers. Gotta VERY good deal on them and they're on the way. Also found a good shop I trust who will install them for a reasonable price AND loan me a car for the day while they finish the install. Schwing!

I also spoke w/ a couple of guys who have had good luck using spark plug non-foulers with the O2 sensors and aren't getting CEL's. I'll try to follow their guidelines and see if I can avoid getting any codes as well.

In terms of the cam, even the 260 (which is a generally seen as a good compromise of power and driveability) seems to have some slight idle issues, according to those I spoke with who use it. I'll probably do a little more research on it before swappin' the cam.

In the meantime, I can't wait to get Kooked!:grin: