New Charger may face fate of retro GTO

[ekool]

New Charger may face fate of retro GTO

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If you saw last weekend's Daytona 500 race, you no doubt know that there's a new Dodge Charger going on sale this summer.

There are two schools of thought on how successful that car will be.

The first says that Chrysler is on a roll, that it's making money and head-turning cars again. The surprising success of the Chrysler 300 sedan and Dodge Magnum wagon set the stage for the Charger's return. After all, those three models share platforms and engines, including the Hemi V-8 that has become Chrysler's fourth brand these days. (As in Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and ``That thing got a Hemi?'')

The new Charger will be priced right, probably starting around $27,000, when it goes on sale in June.

The other group-think puts a more negative spin on the Charger's future. And it invokes the Pontiac GTO.

By Matt Nauman
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Mercury News
Via: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/promotions/10982541.htm?1c

[GTO1]

New Charger may face fate of retro GTO

http://www.mercurynews.com/images/common/spacer.gif
If you saw last weekend's Daytona 500 race, you no doubt know that there's a new Dodge Charger going on sale this summer.

There are two schools of thought on how successful that car will be.

The first says that Chrysler is on a roll, that it's making money and head-turning cars again. The surprising success of the Chrysler 300 sedan and Dodge Magnum wagon set the stage for the Charger's return. After all, those three models share platforms and engines, including the Hemi V-8 that has become Chrysler's fourth brand these days. (As in Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep and ``That thing got a Hemi?'')

The new Charger will be priced right, probably starting around $27,000, when it goes on sale in June.

The other group-think puts a more negative spin on the Charger's future. And it invokes the Pontiac GTO.

By Matt Nauman
http://www.mercurynews.com/images/common/spacer.gif
Mercury News
Via: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/promotions/10982541.htm?1c


The fate of the new GTO? You mean Chrysler's marketing for the Charger will be almost non-existent and that dealers will be marking them up well above sticker (The Mustang GT is also being marked way up). Ford and GM dealers are killing this new lineup of muscle car so expect the same from the Dodge dealers. Expect the Chargers to get at least a $5K dealer markup.

Once the Pontiac dealers got in line with the program and GM offered rebates...those dealer couldn't get enough GTOs. They actually had a very good sales figures (I think about 86%) for a first year model. The problem however is being repeated in some parts of the country with the 05 model.

The Charger's biggest problem will be the four doors, It will keep older generation and hard core mod group away. The four doors will however be attracking soccer moms.

As for reviews don't put much faith in them from Car and Driver or Motor Trend. Although the 05 GTO beat the O5 Mustang GT in every performance catagory the Ford was the winner on bonus points for things like "Gotta have it Factor". I can't wait to see who the put the Charger up against.

...oh and the Hemi...well we all know...it really isn't one...just recycling the name doesn't really work for those over 40 who remember the real thing :)

[GLHS837]

Jesus, the Stang owners and GTO owners are like friken skeeters around here!!!!

Tell you what, come back in a year and we'll check all your predictions against reality.

We've heard already a million times why it can't/won't succeed. Really, we have. Maybe I'm more aware of it, having had the last two years of every person on the net saying how SRT-4s were

A) Never gonna actually perform like the ones tested by the mags, cause you know they had to ringers

B) Gonna blow, cause you can't just throw a turbo on a neon without it blowing up:)

C) Gonna fall to pieces before 30K, cause all neons are crap

D) Not gonna sell, cause everybody would see through Dodges weak ass attempt to jump the small car performance market that Honda invented
(Yeah, that one was rich:))

E) Kill the owners when they inevitbly (sp) crashed, cause you know they are made of tin foil

They were all wrong, and I'm betting so are you. But unless the new GTO or Stang comes with a time machine option, we'll just have to wait.

[hemidakota]

Welcome Gary as the VILLAGE IDIOT as a automotive news reporter without doing any research....

[GLHS837]

Hey, hemi, is Gary the same as GTO1?

[hemidakota]

Possible....

We all know what was the gloom look at the 300 C before production and had the same reactions. Now, sales will hit 100K for 05.

[Bill Pemberton]

I guess the fact is we all love to compare things to the old, but this is not like the GTO , etc. This is a 4 dr Hotrod, and it is indicative of today's buyer. There is not the concern with having just two doors, there is concern about speed and handling, and draggin the friends along is part of the scene.I am seeing some slammed Chargers , with lowered Eibachs, trick rims and 22's, and I can't see that happening with the GTO. Yeh, the name is retro, along with the Hemi buzz, but I think it will open up to a different crowd. Young couples with kids ( when an old fart like me was growing up ) had only 2 dr hot-rods to go for the groceries. I know if I was 30, with a gorgeous blonde wife ( heh, I was there at one time ,hehe ) and a new young-un, I would think Charger Hemi. It will probably come in a couple of grand under a 300C, it will be tuned a bit more aggressively, and the childseat in the back will be easy to pop in. GTO, not going to work, so this Beast is somewhat in a land of it's own.It will sell well, and Dealers should just charge a fair price, as it will not be long before production is pumped up.

Just my thoughts,
Bill Pembeton
Woodhouse Chrysler, Dodge,Jeep

[GTO1]

Possible....

We all know what was the gloom look at the 300 C before production and had the same reactions. Now, sales will hit 100K for 05.

Sorry but not the same person. And being 48 actually I have owned quite a few Chrysler products; including a 1970 Charger during high school in the mid-70's, 1982 Charger 2.2 and a 1984 Laser Turbo. If Chrysler had a coupe anything like the GTO I probably would have bought it last year instead.
Some Mustang people on the GTO are very informative while others are total a$$es. ..So next time before you judge someone in a forum get to know if they are for real or a just here to cause trouble....They just may own a Charger before you do :)


...Now I did just look at the Charger Daytona at the Cleveland Auto show... just yesterday in fact. ...but as stated already this really is going to be looked at by quite a few soccer moms....and personally I do hate it when I see a car being wasted on the wrong person. Although I do like the styling it really should have been a coupe. With the front and rear doors open it looks like your looking into a SUV. This vehicle is too huge to even remotely be compared to the GTO or Mustang...it really is in its own class..and maybe there is a market for it. I just think A new 450 hp Barracuda coupe would be just the ticket :D

[hemidakota]

When this car was being designed, there was other MODELS that was co-sharing the same chassis.

RUMOR ONLY: something is expect around 08 if sales go well for a limited run. Expect it to build by a coach builder rather than DCx.

[GLHS837]

Hey, Hemi, didn't you just post something about a company that does limited run production for DCX in Europe looking for a U.S. plant? Hmmm, wonder what they might want that for? Maybe in that light, it might make sense to produce a two door kinda thing that's not financially feasible on a regular line?

[hemidakota]

Yep...SRT is looking for a coach builder for specialty vehicles. It is now rumored that SRT may be seperating its operation to a coach builder for final assembly.

If there is hope....

My advice to Dan: "PLEASE BUILD THE DURANGO Twin Turbo HEMI DUDE truck!!!!!!!"[U]

[ekool]

The fate of the new GTO? You mean Chrysler's marketing for the Charger will be almost non-existent and that dealers will be marking them up well above sticker (The Mustang GT is also being marked way up). Ford and GM dealers are killing this new lineup of muscle car so expect the same from the Dodge dealers. Expect the Chargers to get at least a $5K dealer markup.

Once the Pontiac dealers got in line with the program and GM offered rebates...those dealer couldn't get enough GTOs. They actually had a very good sales figures (I think about 86%) for a first year model. The problem however is being repeated in some parts of the country with the 05 model.

The Charger's biggest problem will be the four doors, It will keep older generation and hard core mod group away. The four doors will however be attracking soccer moms.


Are we talking about the same GTO? The one that dealers had to give $6000 and $7000 of sticker to get them off the lots?

The 04 GTO wouldnt sell without HUGE rebates and incentives, the dealers were begging people to buy them and practically GIVING them away.

The 05 GTO with the LS2 will probably sell alot better on less rebates, but only time will tell.

[chargershed]

So next time before you judge someone in a forum get to know if they are for real or a just here to cause trouble....They just may own a Charger before you do :)
...Now I did just look at the Charger Daytona at the Cleveland Auto show... just yesterday in fact. ...but as stated already this really is going to be looked at by quite a few soccer moms....
dude, I think you were looking at the "Caravan Daytona" concept... but seriously; this car doesn't appeal to "soccer Moms" it doesn't seat enough people...its a rear drive sports sedan with up to 350 h.p... no awd option to sell it to the safety patrol here in the snow belt...no rear seat dvd etc...this is a Man's car and will be marketed as such... not that some women wouldn't find this car cool...they just wouldn't be the moms of soccer players ;)

[GLHS837]

(psst, shed? there will be a rear seat video option, check hemis "brampton production" post, it shows the option code for it)

[Raxstone]

Are we talking about the same GTO? The one that dealers had to give $6000 and $7000 of sticker to get them off the lots?

The 04 GTO wouldnt sell without HUGE rebates and incentives, the dealers were begging people to buy them and practically GIVING them away.

The 05 GTO with the LS2 will probably sell alot better on less rebates, but only time will tell.

Well, look at what you just wrote...

No kidding the 04 was a tough sell, when the buyers knew that for about the same price the next model year was going to have the LS2. Would you spend the money on the 04, when in a few months you could get the 05 with more power and a somewhat more refined look? How many Chargers do you think Dodge would sell starting today, if they said that in 6 months the standard 5.7L engine would be replaced with the 6.1L for the same price?

Ok, that said, don't start assumiming that I'm a GTO fan, or a stang fan. I'm neither. If I were to buy a new car, it would probably be the Magnum SRT-8. Although a black Charger SRT-8 has its appeal too. I just want people to put things into proper perspective, instead of bashing out of the blue. Admin or not, you gotta think about it first.

[ekool]

The GTO has been a poor seller since day one. The LS2 was not mentioned til pretty far down the road, so your hypothesis is seriously flawed.

Face it, the damn GTO has not sold good as an 04 unit, and only time will tell if it sells good as an 05 unit.

Pick up a magazine, the sales rate of the GTO has been HALF of what it was estimated to be.

I think I know what I'm talking about, you should take your own advice.

edit: correction, LS6 to LS2.. I've got LS6 on the brain.

[Raxstone]

The GTO has been a poor seller since day one. The LS2 was not mentioned til pretty far down the road, so your hypothesis is seriously flawed.



Well, if you consider early January of 2004 to be pretty far down the road... Seriously, it was a well known fact shortly after the 04 hit the sales floor that the 05 was going to have the LS2. The only reason to not catch that fact was to be too fixated on one brand name, and too busy bashing the others.

As for sales on the '05, they are doing just fine for the niche market. You can't honestly expect them to hit mini-van numbers, let alone sedan numbers. Here's some reading for you regarding the sales for '05 -- http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17629&highlight=selling
Unfortunately that link is to a GTO forum, so I'm sure you'll just consider it biased. An undeniably unbiased count will eventually be released, when GM releases their next quarterly report, or some other consumer watchdog releases their own figures.

[GLHS837]

http://forums.gminsidenews.com/showthread.php?t=11811

How about this for real numbers, not isolated reports from individual folks.

Now, we don't have the total numbers available, but the 2005 production run of SRT-8 300Cs is already sold. Even with a small number like 3000 (And I have no idea of what that number really is), that's moving niche cars. :)

[chargershed]

The GTO has been a poor seller since day one. The LS2 was not mentioned til pretty far down the road, so your hypothesis is seriously flawed.

Face it, the damn GTO has not sold good as an 04 unit, and only time will tell if it sells good as an 05 unit.

Pick up a magazine, the sales rate of the GTO has been HALF of what it was estimated to be.

I think I know what I'm talking about, you should take your own advice.

edit: correction, LS6 to LS2.. I've got LS6 on the brain.
actually the production for 2004 was 18,000 they have sold all but 1000 of them...production for the 05 was scaled back to 12000 but that's because GM is adjusting holden's production to match the north American market and put out 06's in sept/nov....

The lessons learned by GM should not go unnoticed, if you overprice a car or the public perceives it to be overpriced because of so-so- press, your car won't sell without huge rebates...when GM put a 3500 rebate on the GTO their sales trippled( that put the price below 30k, take the hint, Dodge!). Most people wern't looking at the GTO, but when they did they found a real performance bargain. Will the GTO ever break sales records? No, but they are changing platforms for '07 so who knows...

The Charger is getting the same criticisms from "fans" as the GTO did...the diffrence is the Dodge will appeal to more people, and you know a cop version will sell thousands..."soccer moms" notwithstanding :rolleyes:

[adaptabl]

dude, I think you were looking at the "Caravan Daytona" concept... but seriously; this car doesn't appeal to "soccer Moms" it doesn't seat enough people...its a rear drive sports sedan with up to 350 h.p... no awd option to sell it to the safety patrol here in the snow belt...no rear seat dvd etc...this is a Man's car and will be marketed as such... not that some women wouldn't find this car cool...they just wouldn't be the moms of soccer players ;)

There is a rear seat DVD. Soccer moms may be a tarket market, since they don't care about the looks of a car/minivan. This is not a mans car.

[Raxstone]

There is a rear seat DVD. Soccer moms may be a tarket market, since they don't care about the looks of a car/minivan. This is not a mans car.

Two comments--
First, soccer moms do care about the looks of their car/van. They just have different taste; bizarre, wierd, often misunderstood taste. Which, in truth, is a good thing or a lot of men would still be single and desperate. Let's face it, without soccer moms and their quirky tastes, there would be a shortage of women willing to put up with us men.

Second, the new Charger might not be a man's car. But it is a heck of a lot more of a 'man's car' than the ricer junk that is out there. I really can't see the new Charger being riced out. I can see it being hot-rodded though, which gives it huge potential. Yes it's a sedan. Fact is, it is a very nice sedan. Just poorly named.

[MPRSteve]

As a previous Charger owner (also 1990 Laser, 1992 Shadow ES, 1994 Intrepid ES, and a 2000 Dodge Stratus ES). I am very dissapointed with this new one, I don't care what engine is in it. If I had to make a choice between it and the GTO I would choose the GTO and I am as anti-GM as you can get (but love the new Z06!).

I hope the sales number plummit just to show DC a lesson. I love the 300's and the Magnum but they did a 180 on the Charger.....

[Narcisse91]

I hope the sales numbers plummit too, so I don't have a hard time getting my SRT-8. Maybe even with a rebate! Once I have mine, they can pick up again...

[Manic]

Hey guys,

New to the forum, and thought I would post my veiws on the topic.

When the '04 GTO came out, ideally, it shouldn't have had any problem at all dealing with the mustang. Better interior, engine and so on... Dealler pricing above MSRP is a fact of life with a new vehicle, the 300C Srt-8 is going through that issue right now but people are willing to pay the addition $$$...

I believe Pontiac (and Mr. Lutz) blew it on the look factor... The '04 GTO looks like any other Pontiac... Sorry, but pretty plain, no WOW!

2 Door or 4 door....

If in the future I had a choice (hopefully) between the two.... Being in my mid 30's, 2 kids it would have to be the 4 door...

Have a great day....

[JBsZ06]

I guess the fact is we all love to compare things to the old, but this is not like the GTO , etc. This is a 4 dr Hotrod, and it is indicative of today's buyer. There is not the concern with having just two doors, there is concern about speed and handling, and draggin the friends along is part of the scene.I am seeing some slammed Chargers , with lowered Eibachs, trick rims and 22's, and I can't see that happening with the GTO. Yeh, the name is retro, along with the Hemi buzz, but I think it will open up to a different crowd. Young couples with kids ( when an old fart like me was growing up ) had only 2 dr hot-rods to go for the groceries. I know if I was 30, with a gorgeous blonde wife ( heh, I was there at one time ,hehe ) and a new young-un, I would think Charger Hemi. It will probably come in a couple of grand under a 300C, it will be tuned a bit more aggressively, and the childseat in the back will be easy to pop in. GTO, not going to work, so this Beast is somewhat in a land of it's own.It will sell well, and Dealers should just charge a fair price, as it will not be long before production is pumped up.

Just my thoughts,
Bill Pembeton
Woodhouse Chrysler, Dodge,Jeep

Bill, I think you nailed this ...

Young couples with kids? but the husband wants a muscle car can easily swing this Dodge Charger Hemi ( or SRT8 ) past his wife....

DC really has done the right thing by bringing these kick @ss four doors to market....

Bold strong and fast...These are full size American muscle cars at their very best.

fwiw..I've never really been a Chrysler product fanatic yet these new hemi powered sedans and wagons are awesome.

Chrysler has the best product lineup in the industry.

Very impressive.

[RonRacer]

But what i keep tell you four door haters is that a lot of the muscle cars form the 60s & 70s were just suped up family cars the goat is the prime example coming out of the tempest. Besides if you don't like it don't buy it just as plain as that.

[Narcisse91]

Bill, I think you nailed this ...

Young couples with kids? but the husband wants a muscle car can easily swing this Dodge Charger Hemi ( or SRT8 ) past his wife....

DC really has done the right thing by bringing these kick @ss four doors to market....

Bold strong and fast...These are full size American muscle cars at their very best.


Exactly. I want 400hp+, but I need a usable backseat and 4 doors, so a Corvette is out. I want something aggressive looking, but not as overstated as an EVO or STi. I want something that can comfortably carry us on long trips, but I don't want a minivan or SUV. So, a full size HEMI powered 425hp 4-door Charger SRT-8 fits perfectly. If it was 2-door, I wouldn't be getting one.

[sniper226]

I can tell you it won't face the same fate because they are completely different cars functionality wise. I have been a Pontiac owner for 8 years. I have a Grand Prix GTP 2 door model. I have a family and I sometimes take my car on trips with the kids through the Y etc. I like very much the back seat & trunk room. 8 years ago, 240 HP/280 torque stock was a big deal. No longer though...

I was very excited when I heard the GTO was coming back. I envisioned a retro yet modern style but yet a big & functional car. I was severly disappointed in the size & styling. Yea it has a good amount of HP (boosted extra 50 this year) but the styling blends in with all the other blah crap cars on the road. I blame GM for taking the cheap way out and using an existing AU model so they could rush this to market without taking their time. Now they are trying to play catchup by putting small block V8's in the GP, Bonneville etc. I really don't care for the new styling they have gone with though and I really don't want to get my a** handed to me when a GTP version of the G6 comes out. (Not sure if it will be faster but I bet it will be close)

I gave the GTO another look this year when they boosted the HP and added some more styling to it. Was again disappointed.
Rear seats way to hard to get in and out to where they are really not useable.
The trunk can't hold anything more than 2 sets of golf clubs.
Styling is improved but still lacking and a non-functional hood scoop is a slap in the face.
The stereo is complete crap.

So I have totaly written off the GTO.
I was very excited when I saw the Charger though.

I wanted something around the size of my current GP. 4 doors is ok as 2 door models is overrated in looks IMOHO. It needed at least 300 HP but preferably 350+. It needed to look mean on the roads so people would be afraid to hog the left lane when they saw me coming. :) It also needs to put those so called performance luxury sedans to shame. I want to show them how much of a foo foo car they have.

The Charger is hitting all the righ buttons for me as you can tell. I drove a 350 HP 300C and waas not overly impressed with the torque pull. Probably because of the weight of the car and the fact that I am use to my instant throttle response of a supercharged car with modified pulley.

I am sure I will be impressed with the SRT-8 model. Hopefully the weight on it wont make it a beast and that I can manage the keep the gas consumption to tolerable levels.

[RonRacer]

F@%K!!!! PONTIAC

[sniper226]

F@%K!!!! PONTIAC

Get life and grow up...

[RonRacer]

I have no life and i'm not grown yet so my remark stands "f@%k pontiac"

[GTO1]

...so maybe the same fates not so bad...and pleeeeease the GTO is not retro.

From someone in the know at GM:

"GTO strong sales momentum cotinues for March! March sales were 1,375, almost double ( '04 March 719) last year. GTO lost momentum at the end of the month due to low inventory levels, we started the month at a 1,800 unit rate. Sales are now up 81% over last year through the first three months. Model split as follows: 967 2005 (70%) and 408 2004 (30%). Dealer net stock on April 1st was 2,450 or 55 days supply which includes 634 2004 models. Top five states as follows, #1 Cal (14% of national sales!) #2 FL, #3 IL, #4 TX, #5 MI.

To put things into perspective consider the following; the GTO seasonally adjusted sales rate for the first quarter of 2005 is about 15,500 units annually. This was accomplished with lower incentives, low inventories and Q1 seasonality demand levels. Secondly, GTO has a turn rate of almost 50%, most vehicles turn about 20%-30% of their grounded stock on a monthly basis. GTO will most likely continue in short supply for the second quarter."

...the bottom line is that there will be no 2005 GTO inventory leftover or major incentives this year..the 2005 GTO is selling out at sticker.

...oh RonRacer, in orderto F@%k one you got to catch one :D

[wannahaveone]

I am posting here for the first time, so pardon my being new, but there is nothing Retro about teh 05 GTO, but the name plate. I am an avid Dodge fan, but there seems to be only a few styling ques of days gone by in the new Charger either. As my site name implies, I want to buy a Charger, most likely will, IF......they come out and Dodge forbids the dealers from rapeing us with undue markups. This bull crap about exclusivity, and $3000-$5000 markups is just that. Dodge has been building these things since mid Feb, if what they told me at teh LA car show was true, there are thousnads of these things sitting somewhere, and dealers have only their own throats to cut by trying to sell them at above sticker price. We have dealers here in Phoenix, selling 300C's for $3000 over sticker price, and Motor Trend just released an article about the 300C convertable, targeted at $45,000-$50,000. How much will the dealers stick us for those? Anyway, I'm done.

[boosted1.3l]

Shoulda made this one

http://host-link.com/images/charger.jpg

[hot-rod realtor]

New Charger may face fate of retro GTO? Please. I drove the GTO and thought it was a great car. Lots of power, cool styling, well decent styling. Great interior but unacceptable for the family of four. Drove the Cadillac CTS and loved it, but six speed and $52k sticker wasn't gonna work either. The Charger though passed the wife test, and more importantly passed my test. I don't feel the need to tint the windows of this car to hide behind! O.K. I will end up tinting the windows, only to add style and beat the sun though. GTO sales are dismal and say what you want, it is a niche market they are appealing to. The Charger is going after a larger market and it is smart unlike G.M. who cancelled the Impala SS in favor for makes like the Aztek. Well there is my .02 cents.
Warren.

[JohnnyG]

New Charger may face fate of retro GTO? Please. I drove the GTO and thought it was a great car. Lots of power, cool styling, well decent styling. Great interior but unacceptable for the family of four. Drove the Cadillac CTS and loved it, but six speed and $52k sticker wasn't gonna work either. The Charger though passed the wife test, and more importantly passed my test. I don't feel the need to tint the windows of this car to hide behind! O.K. I will end up tinting the windows, only to add style and beat the sun though. GTO sales are dismal and say what you want, it is a niche market they are appealing to. The Charger is going after a larger market and it is smart unlike G.M. who cancelled the Impala SS in favor for makes like the Aztek. Well there is my .02 cents.
Warren.
Cool styling? The new gto? I don't think sooooo!!! Gto IMO is from FUGLIVILLE,and needs to go back there!!!Where the heck do they come up with calling that thing(cavalier body with a "crangrape-am" front end)a gto?Gm has got to be the worst of the bunch with this soo called styling!!

[sniper226]

Cool styling? The new gto? I don't think sooooo!!! Gto IMO is from FUGLIVILLE,and needs to go back there!!!Where the heck do they come up with calling that thing(cavalier body with a "crangrape-am" front end)a gto?Gm has got to be the worst of the bunch with this soo called styling!!

Not so much fugly as it is plain. The new model has duel exhaust (On either side of rear bumper) and a hood scoop. The hood scoop is not functional and that is a slap in the face. But they threw in 50 extra horses so you forget about stuff like that. I am in no way defending the GTO. I wanted to like it but there were to many things that I DID'NT like.

I do forsee a Charger in me garage in the near future however.

[tmac4468]

Boy, I sure hope not! I will confess right off the bat - I own a 04 GTO. I am a fan of the current US muscle car revival regardless of the make. I also love the Hemi (real one or not) - also own a 03 Hemi 1500 QC. Had been looking into the Charger, but after seeing pricing hold on the 300C I began trying to decide between a 05 stang or a 06 GXP due to the price I was likely to pay for a charger. Then I saw the stang markups and was offered a price of $23 grand for a new 04 GTO.

Once I drove it I knew there was no way I was going to find another car that offered so much for so little money, so I bought it, and I grin every time I drive.

I know the looks are not that dramatic, but the interior is fantastic, and I rarely find myself seeing much of the outside of my car, because I am in the driver's seat!

Hopefully there will be some Chargers on the roads here in South TX soon.

[Swifster]

First, because my view of this piece of crap is completely negative (can you tell? :whistle: ), I will say I'm a proud fan of the old Chrysler Corporation. I've owned a '67 Chrysler 300 (w/440), a '70 Plymouth Duster and a '82 Plymouth Horizon. My parents have had a '55 Dodge Custom Royal Lancer, '59 Plymouth Sport Fury and a '63 Chrysler 300 convertible. I've had 3 relatives that worked for Chrysler. My likely future brother-in-law works at Jeep engineering in Detroit.

Now having said all this, anyone who has had anything to do with this car should be fired. This is nothing but a fat (but resonably fast) mom & pop barge. If they needed to bring up a name from the past, it should have been Polara or Monaco.

Real Chargers are 2-Doors. Not four doors. Sorry, but even in these times, there is no such thing as a four door muscle car. If this was the case, everyone in the '60's and '70's would have been driving 4-dr Coronets with 383's instead of Chargers or Road Runners. This car is a joke. Can't wait for the Charger police car :mad: .

I don't mind Chrysler making a 4-door and using this engine. But if they wanted a performance version to go against GTO's and Mustangs. There should have been a coupe. Trevor Creed, the head of the design staff has stated that Chrysler would be out of the coupe business by 2007. This alone is enough reason to demand this fool be fired. He says the coupe market is soft. Since Chrysler hasn't built a nice coupe since the '74 Challenger and Barracuda, it's not exactly a surprise no one rushes the Mopar dealers seeking to buy a Sebring or Stratus (Mitsubishi Eclipse with uglier sheetmetal).

Considering how long it has taken Chrysler to come up with the two Hemi engines currently in production, this car is a complete disappointment. I want these fools to build what we have all been denied. A powerful, stylish coupe with real performance. A car that I don't have to worry about seeing "soccer mom" in the next lane over in the same car.

At most, this is a 'Magnum' sedan. If they want to use the Charger name, make a coupe, give us a choice of engines (5.7L or 6.1L), a T-56 six speed manual transmission, and the opportunity to delete stuff that makes this car 4000 lbs (PW, PL, A/C, etc.). This type of coupe would outsell a GTO and may outsell a Mustang (if priced right, not $30+K for a Hemi).

As it is, this over priced turd will sit on dealer lots for being an a 'wanna-be muscle' car with tacky stickers. Fire Dieter! Fire Trevor!

[GLHS837]

They'll get right on that.

[maneval69]

I just joined and don't have time to go back through this thread and see if some of this has already been posted so Swifster you will end up taking the brunt of my 2 cents


Real Chargers are 2-Doors. Not four doors. Sorry, but even in these times, there is no such thing as a four door muscle car. If this was the case, everyone in the '60's and '70's would have been driving 4-dr Coronets with 383's instead of Chargers or Road Runners. This car is a joke. Can't wait for the Charger police car
Have you driven one?
This is not the first 4 door charger. Check out the picture.
And what are you sorry for? If they changed the name would you love the car? Call it what you want, "A rose by any name smells as sweet".
I don't mind Chrysler making a 4-door and using this engine.
I'm sure Chrysler is relieved to here it's OK with you.
I had to put my boots on to finish reading this crap.

And why do you want to compare the Charger to a Mustang or GTO. The charger has never been in there class. If they had called it the Challenger, then you wouldn't sound so vindictive.
I don't even understand why you bother posting on this sight. You obviously don't like the direction DCX is moving. Is this a German hate thing? Or are you a fan of another manufacturer and your lashing out in fear/envy. I may be reading too much into your post.

How many Mustanges and GTOs do you see on then NASCAR circuit?
Speeking of NASCAR. The Charger is now the only name plate in Nascar available stock with a V8 and rear wheel drive.

[Swifster]

Have you driven one?
Nope, but I have driven a C300 and an SRT-8. Nice cars. Fast. Has 4-doors. Has all the soul of an M-B E Class (though it does look better).

My question to you. Have you driven a new GTO? How about a new Mustang? The new LS2 GTO does the quarter in 13.10. The SRT-8 isn't this fast. A 5.7L Hemi will not beat a Mustang.

This is not the first 4 door charger. Check out the picture.
Sorry, lame attempts at Photoshop doesn't make that ugly thing real. There have not been any 4-door Chargers. Now if you really want to see good photoshop, look below...

If they changed the name would you love the car? Call it what you want, "A rose by any name smells as sweet".
Would I love the car? No. But my level of disappointment and frustration over the direction the idiots who are running the ship are pushing it would be far less.

And why do you want to compare the Charger to a Mustang or GTO. The Charger has never been in their class. If they had called it the Challenger, then you wouldn't sound so vindictive.
Hmmm, as I remember the GTO and Charger were both intermediate cars and were in exactly the same class. The original Mustang was a little smaller and still packed 390's and 428's. Naming this car 'Challenger' would be just as bad. Did you want to Photoshop a Challenger 4-door too?

I don't even understand why you bother posting on this sight. You obviously don't like the direction DCX is moving. Is this a German hate thing?
It has nothing to do with the Germans. But then again, the current management team chased out just about anyone with talent that the company had. They've also run M-B into the ground as well. DCX as related to Chrysler has a hit with the 300. But the new trucks (including the Durango and Dakota) are not selling anywhere near expectations. One or two profitable quarters do not a healthy company make.

Or are you a fan of another manufacturer and your lashing out in fear/envy. I may be reading too much into your post.
I'm a Mopar guy. My lashing out is the envy I have for the people who love Ford and GM because they have true performance cars. They sell coupes. Ford can't keep Mustangs in the dealer lots. The GTO would be the same way if A) GM didn't over price the car, and 2) the dealers wouldn't try tacking on $2K to $5K in additional mark-up. GTO's are now selling better because there are enough on dealer lots to eliminate the mark-ups.

How many Mustanges and GTOs do you see on then NASCAR circuit? Speeking of NASCAR. The Charger is now the only name plate in Nascar available stock with a V8 and rear wheel drive.

And how many of the production Charger parts are on the NASCAR version? Zero. NASCAR now uses common templates. The only real difference is the engine, and that has no production parts in it either.

Pontiac does not participate in NASCAR at all. They pulled out about 5 years ago. The Mustang would never conform to the common template.

[shinymopar]

Re: New Charger may face fate of retro GTO

Not a chance, they already have more pre-orders than GTO did in sales since it came out. It's going to be a hit.

[maneval69]

My question to you. Have you driven a new GTO? How about a new Mustang? The new LS2 GTO does the quarter in 13.10. The SRT-8 isn't this fast. A 5.7L Hemi will not beat a Mustang.
Yes and it is faster than the Charger. I still like the charger better. It's got more style.

Sorry, lame attempts at Photoshop doesn't make that ugly thing real. There have not been any 4-door Chargers. Now if you really want to see good photoshop, look below...
If it is photoshop it's not lame. Here is where I got them. They look real to me. Could it be another car with Charger logos?
http://www.moparts.org/moparts/picture/members/3/little.html


Would I love the car? No. But my level of disappointment and frustration over the direction the idiots who are running the ship are pushing it would be far less.
You must have been pissed through the 80's then. 2.2L and front wheel drive. At least they where two door cars! (Sarcasm)

Hmmm, as I remember the GTO and Charger were both intermediate cars and were in exactly the same class. The original Mustang was a little smaller and still packed 390's and 428's. Naming this car 'Challenger' would be just as bad. Did you want to Photoshop a Challenger 4-door too?
I thought the GTO was in the same class with Chevelle, Cutlass, Challenger.
I could be wrong.
And I see your point Challenger or Cuda' and I would be upset too.

It has nothing to do with the Germans. But then again, the current management team chased out just about anyone with talent that the company had. They've also run M-B into the ground as well. DCX as related to Chrysler has a hit with the 300. But the new trucks (including the Durango and Dakota) are not selling anywhere near expectations. One or two profitable quarters do not a healthy company make.

Healthier than GM.

I'm a Mopar guy. My lashing out is the envy I have for the people who love Ford and GM because they have true performance cars. They sell coupes. Ford can't keep Mustangs in the dealer lots. The GTO would be the same way if A) GM didn't over price the car, and 2) the dealers wouldn't try tacking on $2K to $5K in additional mark-up. GTO's are now selling better because there are enough on dealer lots to eliminate the mark-ups.
Yeah, that was a low blow I apologize.
But it's spilled milk at this point, get over it.


And how many of the production Charger parts are on the NASCAR version? Zero. NASCAR now uses common templates. The only real difference is the engine, and that has no production parts in it either.
No Sh!t. That's not the point.

Pontiac does not participate in NASCAR at all. They pulled out about 5 years ago. The Mustang would never conform to the common template.

And Dodge does.. Isn't it Ironic . . don't ya think?

[JohnnyG]

[QUOTE=Swifster]better).My question to you. Have you driven a new GTO? How about a new Mustang? The new LS2 GTO does the quarter in 13.10. The SRT-8 isn't this fast. A 5.7L Hemi will not beat a Mustang.

AH,I hate to tell you but,the 300c srt-8 is faster than the gto,by a 1/10th.You need to read car and driver magazine a couple of months back with cover of gto,300c srt-8,and cts-v!!300c srt-8 1/4 =13.2 gto 1/4 =13.3 cts-v=13.10!! Nice try though!!! gto's looks= :sick: ugly car,2 doors and all!!

[shinymopar]

...so maybe the same fates not so bad...and pleeeeease the GTO is not retro.

From someone in the know at GM:

"GTO strong sales momentum cotinues for March! March sales were 1,375, almost double ( '04 March 719) last year. GTO lost momentum at the end of the month due to low inventory levels, we started the month at a 1,800 unit rate. Sales are now up 81% over last year through the first three months. Model split as follows: 967 2005 (70%) and 408 2004 (30%). Dealer net stock on April 1st was 2,450 or 55 days supply which includes 634 2004 models. Top five states as follows, #1 Cal (14% of national sales!) #2 FL, #3 IL, #4 TX, #5 MI.

To put things into perspective consider the following; the GTO seasonally adjusted sales rate for the first quarter of 2005 is about 15,500 units annually. This was accomplished with lower incentives, low inventories and Q1 seasonality demand levels. Secondly, GTO has a turn rate of almost 50%, most vehicles turn about 20%-30% of their grounded stock on a monthly basis. GTO will most likely continue in short supply for the second quarter."

...the bottom line is that there will be no 2005 GTO inventory leftover or major incentives this year..the 2005 GTO is selling out at sticker.

...oh RonRacer, in orderto F@%k one you got to catch one :D

Remember Mr. Lutz guaranteed 30k in sales as a minimum number. So they finally are at the halfway point. I do think the dealers marking them up so much really hurt it's introduction. Ford is doing the same thing with the V8 'Stangs. In the Baltimore area there are plenty of GTO's available and they are heavily discounted now.

[chargershed]

Remember Mr. Lutz guaranteed 30k in sales as a minimum number. So they finally are at the halfway point. I do think the dealers marking them up so much really hurt it's introduction. Ford is doing the same thing with the V8 'Stangs. In the Baltimore area there are plenty of GTO's available and they are heavily discounted now.
Mr. Lutz couldn't have guarenteed 30k, they can't build but 18k a year under the EPA exemption they are under...the redesigned car for '07/08 will be federalized and designed with the N/A market in mind and might get to 30k in sales...btw 80% of 'stang sales have been V-6's and :asleep:

[kwgardner]

There are quite a number of uneducated GM and Ford fans who are posting on this site. The release of the Charger is just like the PT Cruiser. GM and Ford guys dissed this new retro styled vehicle and it was one of the most anticipated cars in Chryslers history. Now with the Charger the same GM and Ford people hate the car but it is supposed to be even more anticipated than the PT. Who ever said the new Charger is aimed at "old muscle"? The new Charger has capabilities of old muscle but has some of the best technologies of todays cars (ESP, MDS, etc...). So for all of you Charger haters, shut up and go by a useless, lame styled, GM or Ford.

[TurboAWD]

BOOM!! My point exactly, they didnt try to bring back the Charger we all know, they brought back a Dodge personal luxury car with hemi power and good looks (compare it to a camry.... HATERS) This being, the Chargers original itention. 2 doors sold well back then, they dont know, they can barely sell 2 door trucks for #### sakes. For the guys that dont una' stand what I just said. In simple terms. ITS AN UPSCALE INTREPID RELACEMENT NOT A MUSTANG COMPETITOR. THE 2DR CHALLENGER IS ON ITS WAY. :)

[plugray]

I feel like a kid on these forums at 30 years old. But I've got plenty of Charger experience. My mother was driven to the hospital to deliver me in my father's '73 Charger. My mother found the engine's sound put me to sleep everytime after a short spin around the block. My father ended up selling the car when I was 3 for a more family friendly vehicle.

I've had only coupes. My first was the omni charger as cheap transportation in high school (now that was a car that didn't desrve the Charger name. In colloge and then some I had a '67 Barracuda. Lately I've been driving a '95 Stealth.

Now that I'm 30 and on my way to getting married I didn't want to get another 2 door car. Already its hard enough to get my sisters kids (7,9) in the car. And forget about more than 1 friend riding comfotably. Also the trunck space is a joke. But when I started looking at for doors last year. Nothing really stood out and anything that did cost way too much. I even looked at some of the coupes because of the horsepower, including the GTO, but just could get past the small back seats and trunks.

When I heard about the Charger and that it had plenty of power, 4 doors, and a distinct look I got excited. I've been keeping track of it all this year and saw nothing but good reviews. Which wasn't suprising considering how close it is to the 300 and Magnum which have both done well. Of course the clincher was taking a test drive myself and taking my fiance on a 2nd test drive I can say with confidence the will be a Charger in my garage this year. If the Charger had been another coupe I may very well be at a Honda dealership with my girl convincing me how good a buy the Accord is and that the V6 is plenty enough power.

Fortunatly that scenario has been avoided. Now it all comes down to the color, and being a fan of Pittsburgh sports, the yellow and black Top Banana Daytona RT is at the top of my list. Thanks to DCx for making a roomy, stylish, powerful 4 door.

[mwwhited]

As a previous Charger owner (also 1990 Laser, 1992 Shadow ES, 1994 Intrepid ES, and a 2000 Dodge Stratus ES). I am very dissapointed with this new one, I don't care what engine is in it. If I had to make a choice between it and the GTO I would choose the GTO and I am as anti-GM as you can get (but love the new Z06!).

I hope the sales number plummit just to show DC a lesson. I love the 300's and the Magnum but they did a 180 on the Charger.....


For as much as people are on here complaining about the Charger I sure have alot of people drooling over mine. And I only have the SE model.

[mwwhited]

First, because my view of this piece of crap is completely negative (can you tell? :whistle: ), I will say I'm a proud fan of the old Chrysler Corporation. I've owned a '67 Chrysler 300 (w/440), a '70 Plymouth Duster and a '82 Plymouth ....
BLAH BLAH BLAH... I love my 4-door Charger and it can kick some Mustang and GTO ass

[mwwhited]

BOOM!! My point exactly, they didnt try to bring back the Charger we all know, they brought back a Dodge personal luxury car with hemi power and good looks (compare it to a camry.... HATERS) This being, the Chargers original itention. 2 doors sold well back then, they dont know, they can barely sell 2 door trucks for #### sakes. For the guys that dont una' stand what I just said. In simple terms. ITS AN UPSCALE INTREPID RELACEMENT NOT A MUSTANG COMPETITOR. THE 2DR CHALLENGER IS ON ITS WAY. :)


It may be an upscale Intrepid but it can beat the HELL out of a Mustang

[Phantomcobra]

Bottom line here seems to be not that there is anything "wrong" with the Charger. It might be a very good car and fit what a lot of people want. But the NAME is the problem. They could put an 8.0 L Hemi that does the quarter faster than a dragster and a four door STILL wouldn't be a Charger. IF they wanted to make a Charger, it should be 2 doors, fast and sporty. A real retro look would have been a nice touch (there is no doubt from 1/2 mile away that a Mustang is a Mustang) but to do this the right way, they would have named this the Coronet and then made the Charger version with 2 doors. Then the 30 something kids on here could have room for their families with a similar car in the Coronet and the people who wanted a REAL Charger, could have one. By the way, I've owned a couple Chargers from the 60s (still have the 66), 4 Coronets (all were very good runners and dependable), 2 Valiants (still drive one) and a 67 Monaco. I have no problem with the car Chrysler made. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it might be a success because of the car and upcoming changes, not the name. The NAME PLATE is the mistake here, not the car or the maker.

[guyton84]

Bottom line here seems to be not that there is anything "wrong" with the Charger. It might be a very good car and fit what a lot of people want. But the NAME is the problem. They could put an 8.0 L Hemi that does the quarter faster than a dragster and a four door STILL wouldn't be a Charger. IF they wanted to make a Charger, it should be 2 doors, fast and sporty. A real retro look would have been a nice touch (there is no doubt from 1/2 mile away that a Mustang is a Mustang) but to do this the right way, they would have named this the Coronet and then made the Charger version with 2 doors. Then the 30 something kids on here could have room for their families with a similar car in the Coronet and the people who wanted a REAL Charger, could have one. By the way, I've owned a couple Chargers from the 60s (still have the 66), 4 Coronets (all were very good runners and dependable), 2 Valiants (still drive one) and a 67 Monaco. I have no problem with the car Chrysler made. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it might be a success because of the car and upcoming changes, not the name. The NAME PLATE is the mistake here, not the car or the maker.


I agree totally. Here's what I think should have been made:

[guyton84]

Bottom line here seems to be not that there is anything "wrong" with the Charger. It might be a very good car and fit what a lot of people want. But the NAME is the problem. They could put an 8.0 L Hemi that does the quarter faster than a dragster and a four door STILL wouldn't be a Charger. IF they wanted to make a Charger, it should be 2 doors, fast and sporty. A real retro look would have been a nice touch (there is no doubt from 1/2 mile away that a Mustang is a Mustang) but to do this the right way, they would have named this the Coronet and then made the Charger version with 2 doors. Then the 30 something kids on here could have room for their families with a similar car in the Coronet and the people who wanted a REAL Charger, could have one. By the way, I've owned a couple Chargers from the 60s (still have the 66), 4 Coronets (all were very good runners and dependable), 2 Valiants (still drive one) and a 67 Monaco. I have no problem with the car Chrysler made. Unfortunately, I'm afraid it might be a success because of the car and upcoming changes, not the name. The NAME PLATE is the mistake here, not the car or the maker.

I totally agree. This is what I think they should have made:

[mudog]

If anyone has driven the new GTO like i have, then can say it sucks. The thing shakes in park and it doesnt even have any options. I much rather ride in comfort with power then only power.

[05GTO]

If anyone has driven the new GTO like i have, then can say it sucks. The thing shakes in park and it doesnt even have any options. I much rather ride in comfort with power then only power.

The shake you felt is the cam, I like the shake just a reminder that there's a 400hp V8 under the hood it's part of the character of the car. I'm also gonna have to disagree with the comfort comment, the GTO is extremely comfortable to drive in, it has some of the nicest seats available in any class car and 4 full size adults fit just fine in the car. True you don't get fancy options like a NAV system or dual climate control, which in my case I wasn't going to get in mine anyway even if available. Only option's are the rim size and either auto or manual tran.

[hemidakota]

Hmm, didn't feel that 425-HP (433-HP crank power) under the 300 SRT hood.....I wonder why?

However, it is more like the motor mounts and not the low profile cams.

I had a .600 solid cams on a 502-CUI (12.5:1 compression pistons) and that will make the car role from side-to-side.

[maneval69]

433-hp crank power
where did you get that from?

[hemidakota]

From the source who dynoed the first production engine.

[05GTO]

Hmm, didn't feel that 425-HP (433-HP crank power) under the 300 SRT hood.....I wonder why?

However, it is more like the motor mounts and not the low profile cams.

I had a .600 solid cams on a 502-CUI (12.5:1 compression pistons) and that will make the car role from side-to-side.

I doubt motor mounts, if I rev the car in neutral to 3-4K the slight shake at idle turns into an earthquake, the entire car sways you feel it inside and visibly see it move alot. But you might not be far off, as the GTO's do have a rather soft spring setup that causes some more then desired body roll in hard corners, perhaps that adds to it a bit.

[Stonebreaker]

Bottom line here seems to be not that there is anything "wrong" with the Charger. It might be a very good car and fit what a lot of people want. But the NAME is the problem. They could put an 8.0 L Hemi that does the quarter faster than a dragster and a four door STILL wouldn't be a Charger. IF they wanted to make a Charger, it should be 2 doors, fast and sporty.
.
.
.
The NAME PLATE is the mistake here, not the car or the maker.


You know, you guys are forgetting that unlike the GTO, the Charger isn't breaking any new marketing ground. I can think of another 4-door sedan that used an old name, and it is still wildly popular 10 years after it ceased production... and I still own the one I bought new in 1996. Since '96, there hasn't been a car worthy to replace it...until now. Forged crank? Brembo brakes? 20 inch wheels? Special heavy duty block? This car is destined for greatness. All it needs is a 3500 stall converter and a performance exhaust, and it's going to be running 12's all day long. Add a small turbo or supercharger and you're looking at 11's.

And it even looks good.

[GTO1]

BLAH BLAH BLAH... I love my 4-door Charger and it can kick some Mustang and GTO ass

Think so? The next time us goats get together at Norwalk raceway I'll have to remember to invite you. The current stock Chargers just don't have a chance against either a stock 04 or 05 GTO, 05 GT maybe...Cobra no way.

[JohnnyG]

Think so? The next time us goats get together at Norwalk raceway I'll have to remember to invite you. The current stock Chargers just don't have a chance against either a stock 04 or 05 GTO, 05 GT maybe...Cobra no way.
I agree somewhat to what you have said,except for the stock charger srt-8 as well as the shelby cobra mustang coming out!! Now those 2 cars have definitely got it "WAY OVER" on the gto, in especially the looks department as well as the performance department!!! The gto to me, is just way to bland styling for me!! It kind of reminds me of a rice-burner body,with a grand-am front end!! I think gm's entire line is hurting in the looks department,except maybe the new zr-1 corvette!!! :)

[GTO1]

I agree somewhat to what you have said,except for the stock charger srt-8 as well as the shelby cobra mustang coming out!! Now those 2 cars have definitely got it "WAY OVER" on the gto, in especially the looks department as well as the performance department!!! The gto to me, is just way to bland styling for me!! It kind of reminds me of a rice-burner body,with a grand-am front end!! I think gm's entire line is hurting in the looks department,except maybe the new zr-1 corvette!!! :)

Oh I agree about the SRT-8 didn't think you could get one yet that's why I said current stock chargers. Now as for the cobra and shelby...they have forced air so its like apples ond oranges. You'd have to put a supercharger or turbo on a GTO or Charger to get a honest comparison. Add the STS turbo on a 2004 GT0 and ...10.66 130mph 1/4 mile

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/f/Video/brent_gto_10.66_130_mph.wmv

Ths base STS turbo package runs $4500...so it would still makes the GTO way cheaper then the Charger STR-8,Cobra or Shelby to get that kind of power. There are quite a few of STS GTOs running around.

[CO-Charger]

Add the STS turbo on a 2004 GT0 and ...10.66 130mph 1/4 mile:
http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/f/Video/brent_gto_10.66_130_mph.wmv
All I can say is .... Damn!!

[maneval69]

Oh I agree about the SRT-8 didn't think you could get one yet that's why I said current stock chargers. Now as for the cobra and shelby...they have forced air so its like apples ond oranges. You'd have to put a supercharger or turbo on a GTO or Charger to get a honest comparison. Add the STS turbo on a 2004 GT0 and ...10.66 130mph 1/4 mile

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/f/Video/brent_gto_10.66_130_mph.wmv

Ths base STS turbo package runs $4500...so it would still makes the GTO way cheaper then the Charger STR-8,Cobra or Shelby to get that kind of power. There are quite a few of STS GTOs running around.


what was that reaction time? 2 second.

[CO-Charger]

what was that reaction time? 2 second.I thought the same thing at first but then remembered my drag racing tech info. Since he was only a single on the track he wasn't racing to be the first across the finish line. Reation time is not a factor in ET, but it is a factor in who might win a race. Each lane's ET clock does not start until they break away from the start line. Thats why sometimes the quicker car loses. He just didn't get to the end before the other guy.

What he was doing was letting the turbo wind up to get the best launch.

[Stonebreaker]

Oh I agree about the SRT-8 didn't think you could get one yet that's why I said current stock chargers. Now as for the cobra and shelby...they have forced air so its like apples ond oranges. You'd have to put a supercharger or turbo on a GTO or Charger to get a honest comparison. Add the STS turbo on a 2004 GT0 and ...10.66 130mph 1/4 mile

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/f/Video/brent_gto_10.66_130_mph.wmv

Ths base STS turbo package runs $4500...so it would still makes the GTO way cheaper then the Charger STR-8,Cobra or Shelby to get that kind of power. There are quite a few of STS GTOs running around.

It's not quite that easy. The base STS system has only 4 lbs of boost and isn't strong enough to push the car into the 10's - for that, you need the 10 psi kit which requires an upgraded turbo, intercooler, alcohol injection, programming, injectors, upgraded fuel pump; and since the stock driveline won't handle that kind of power, add in a BMR driveshaft, BMR rear end cover, BMR axle stubs, and BMR half shafts at a MINIMUM, and you might as well throw in a set of slicks and racing wheels since you'll never get traction on street tires. You're looking at around $11,000 in parts alone to make a GTO run 10's and that's only if you do everything right the first time. So no, a 10 second GTO is not going to be cheaper than an SRT8 or the other factory cars.

[GTO1]

It's not quite that easy. The base STS system has only 4 lbs of boost and isn't strong enough to push the car into the 10's - for that, you need the 10 psi kit which requires an upgraded turbo, intercooler, alcohol injection, programming, injectors, upgraded fuel pump; and since the stock driveline won't handle that kind of power, add in a BMR driveshaft, BMR rear end cover, BMR axle stubs, and BMR half shafts at a MINIMUM, and you might as well throw in a set of slicks and racing wheels since you'll never get traction on street tires. You're looking at around $11,000 in parts alone to make a GTO run 10's and that's only if you do everything right the first time. So no, a 10 second GTO is not going to be cheaper than an SRT8 or the other factory cars.

A bone stock 04 gto with STS upgraded turbo/intercooler/injectors/tune will run a low 12 1/4 @ 7-8psi..cost around $7000.

and well...a very low milage 04 GTO can easily be picked up for 22-24K...brand new around 27.5K. Even with $11K in mods it still will be less then the SRT8 sticker price and significatly less then the Shelby.

[Stonebreaker]

A bone stock 04 gto with STS upgraded turbo/intercooler/injectors/tune will run a low 12 1/4 @ 7-8psi..cost around $7000.

and well...a very low milage 04 GTO can easily be picked up for 22-24K...brand new around 27.5K. Even with $11K in mods it still will be less then the SRT8 sticker price and significatly less then the Shelby.
So now it's low 12's instead of 10's.

As far as your price comparison goes...that's just dumb. The GTO's cheaper new, so of course a used one is going to be even cheaper. I don't really care - the hack job Pontiac did on the Monaro turning it into the GTO just made the car butt-ugly in my opinion. I'm so pissed at them for that, because I was planning on buying it when I heard it was coming to America. Then I got a look at it as a Pontiac. The charger, on the other hand, looks GOOD. Reminds me of my '96 impala. If all I cared about was price, I'd probably buy another impala or a caprice and customize it. And if any more dealers try to jack me for ten grand over an unknown sticker price on an SRT-8 like the local one did today, I may just do that.

[JohnnyG]

Oh I agree about the SRT-8 didn't think you could get one yet that's why I said current stock chargers. Now as for the cobra and shelby...they have forced air so its like apples ond oranges. You'd have to put a supercharger or turbo on a GTO or Charger to get a honest comparison. Add the STS turbo on a 2004 GT0 and ...10.66 130mph 1/4 mile

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/f/Video/brent_gto_10.66_130_mph.wmv

Ths base STS turbo package runs $4500...so it would still makes the GTO way cheaper then the Charger STR-8,Cobra or Shelby to get that kind of power. There are quite a few of STS GTOs running around.
That gto sounded like it had a serious cam work done to it. Very impressive times. Just,the looks of the car really Doesn't do it for me though,kind of ugly IMO!! :neutral:I definitely don't believe with just the turbo and intercooler/injectors/tune, that the car got in the 10's,like I said,that car sounded like it had alot more engine work done to it though!! Then you state in a different post that the stock 04 gto with the turbo/intercooler/injectors/tune turns 12's!! I smell somethin' fishy in gto-land!! :confused:I sense a BS flag should be raised!! For my taste I'll take the Charger SRT-8,300cSRT-8,or the New Shelby Cobra GT-500 mustang coming out--I still believe all 3 of these cars are way better in looks hands down,as well as performance!! And if your going to compare apples to apples as you wanted me to do,these cars are all factory stock,and all 3 are faster,as well as way,way BETTER LOOKING than the mondero gt,I mean gto!!

[05GTO]

And all 3 of those cars are priced well over what you can get an 05 GTO for, I paid 31,300 back in March before any incentives. What's going to the the price for the SRT-8's and GT-500?? 40K+?

The SRT-8's will be slightly faster, but no manual available-that kills it for me. I'd love to have a GT-500 but they are going to sell fast and cost a bunch of cash over MSRP, the dealers are gonna mark them up like crazy, and put's it out of my reach unless I sell my house. So that's not happening.

About the looks, the charger is getting the same heat the GTO gets about it's looks. Both car's are either you like or hate the look. The Stang seems to be widely accepted as the better looking car of the bunch. Being that looks are subjective though I like the look of the GTO, like the look of the charger, and dislike the stang.

[JohnnyG]

The gto is definitely the least attractive of the 3 as reflected by the poor sales!! The charger srt-8 version especially,and The new stang especially the shelby version coming out,no question blows the gto out of the water as far as looks and performance right across the board!! The gto is just way too bland and boring. As stated,looks like a rice-burner body with a gran-am front end!! That's why gm keeps trying to change the looks of car because of its low sales!!! IT will always be a mondero,not a gto!!! They should have call it the mondero gt!! The one good thing however is at least the muscle car days are back!!!! :happy:

[05GTO]

And what makes the rebadged 300c a charger??? Since when did chargers have 4 doors??? If your so against the GTO name being applied to a Monaro, you'll also have to find Dodge's use of the name Charger to be equally misplaced.

[radguy]

And what makes the rebadged 300c a charger??? Since when did chargers have 4 doors??? If your so against the GTO name being applied to a Monaro, you'll also have to find Dodge's use of the name Charger to be equally misplaced.
Things I did not like about the GTO.
1) Entry and exit to the back seat. My 6 year old struggled getting in and out. There is plenty of room once you get back there.
2) Door locks. For that kind of money I want an actual door lock button.
3) The shifter for the MT is to far back. Did not like the way I had to bend my arm.
4) Handling was to soft.
5) Reflector on the fog light fell off, the E-brake broke, grill fell off of the drivers side door, all with in 10K miles. I don't know what else has broke since then but I will have to ask my brother.
6) I know yours is an LS2 but the only way I could get any real numbers at the track required me to reset the computer on the LS1. It would pick up 5 tenths.

So as you can see there is a few things I do not like about the GTO. Now with that said, if I was single with out a family I would most likely own a 05 GTO. Since I have a family though, I will own a four door. So if you don't like the charger why don't you go back to LS1GTO.com. If you like I can come over there and troll a little for you and ask why your 05 did not run in the 12s stock. I see you have ran only 13.1 with drag radials and an intake.
Any way I drove one for just over a month and made over 50 passes at the track with it. So my complaints are justified.
Here is a link to where I posted it on LS1GTO.com
http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23948
Anyway have fun with your GTO. I know I will have fun with my charger.

[JohnnyG]

Things I don't like about the new gto---UGLY!!!!! :happy:

[05GTO]

Things I did not like about the GTO.

So as you can see there is a few things I do not like about the GTO. Now with that said, if I was single with out a family I would most likely own a 05 GTO. Since I have a family though, I will own a four door. So if you don't like the charger why don't you go back to LS1GTO.com. If you like I can come over there and troll a little for you and ask why your 05 did not run in the 12s stock. I see you have ran only 13.1 with drag radials and an intake.
Any way I drove one for just over a month and made over 50 passes at the track with it. So my complaints are justified.
Here is a link to where I posted it on LS1GTO.com
http://www.ls2gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23948
Anyway have fun with your GTO. I know I will have fun with my charger.

Have I really been slamming the Charger? Cause I defended it when "fasterV8" was bashing everything other then an 05 stang GT on your forums. A buddy of mine has it and I really don't have a problem with the car at all, if I was looking for a roomy sedan I'd be in a Charger. My comment about use of the Charger name was justified if people are gonna complain about the use of "GTO" on a rebadged Monaro, both cars are rebadged.

Yep 13.1 is my best time with DR on the car, I don't claim to be the best driver in the world. It ran what it ran with a crappy 2.0 60ft time, so yes a better driver would have the car in the 12's (nice to know the car has the potential but the driver doesn't yet). I need to practice more as I don't have anywhere near your 50 passes on a track yet.

And fyi about the LPE intake, it won't give you any gains (no matter what intake you use) till the car is tuned, most 05's dyno 330-340 (a little higher if you reset the battery 350ish) and everyone who dyno's aftermarket intakes with the stock tune see's no gains (some slightly lose power due to the pcm adding fuel). What it will do is keep the performance more consistent and heatsoak is a little less of an issue then with the stock air box. Once the car is tuned it'll make better use of the aftermarket intakes, at least on the 05 GTO's.

[radguy]

As I said there are things that I do not like about the GTO. Then again there are things I hate about every car. As for the 50 passes at the track, well that was just in the GTO. I have made more than 200 a year for the last 20 years.
As I said if I was a single man I would own one, can't beat the after market support and the ls1/ls2 engines are some of the best. It’s too bad the only rear drive 4 door is the $50k Cad.
I have not driven a 05 but from what I have seen the torque management just kills them. So a tune will make a big improvement.
Anyway I will get some video of me running my brothers GTO at the track and post it over at LS1GTO.com.

[4DEATER]

No need to add to these comments. These posts are older than some of our cars. Just fun to look back and see how far we have come......or have we? :lol:

[cjsCharger]

You must be bored 4deater! Pulling up all these old threads is funny though.

[sniper226]

Heh, I can't wait to do the same on the Challenger forum because that will mean I own and have been driving one! (some years into the future) :)

[HEMIDON]

I guess the fact is we all love to compare things to the old, but this is not like the GTO , etc. This is a 4 dr Hotrod, and it is indicative of today's buyer. There is not the concern with having just two doors, there is concern about speed and handling, and draggin the friends along is part of the scene.I am seeing some slammed Chargers , with lowered Eibachs, trick rims and 22's, and I can't see that happening with the GTO. Yeh, the name is retro, along with the Hemi buzz, but I think it will open up to a different crowd. Young couples with kids ( when an old fart like me was growing up ) had only 2 dr hot-rods to go for the groceries. I know if I was 30, with a gorgeous blonde wife ( heh, I was there at one time ,hehe ) and a new young-un, I would think Charger Hemi. It will probably come in a couple of grand under a 300C, it will be tuned a bit more aggressively, and the childseat in the back will be easy to pop in. GTO, not going to work, so this Beast is somewhat in a land of it's own.It will sell well, and Dealers should just charge a fair price, as it will not be long before production is pumped up.

Just my thoughts,
Bill Pembeton
Woodhouse Chrysler, Dodge,Jeep

Just a look WAY back... What a prediction... Everything came to be true:grin:

[StangPro]

(The Mustang GT is also being marked way up).

How is this? With Ebay selling cars and the cheap cost to ship them this isn't reality. Mustang GTs sit on the lot for quite a while here in Detroit, especially in the winter.
If anyone pays anything over dealer invoice (plus shipping costs of abotu $400 a car) then they deserve to pay more. Dealers are starving to death and will make a sale any way they can.

The GTO's fate was sealed the minute the first photo was taken of it. No one I know cares if it had 700hp. It looks like a Grand Am. For over $30k. No sale there...
GM screwed that one up. Here's a hint. Don't make a an incredible car look like a 16 year old girl's jalopy.

[goval]

I remember reading a while back, an article on the most dissapointing cars of 2005. The GTO won on it's class. So much money for a "blah" kind of car that lacks looks.

[reddawgfuji]

I love the post that says we don't drive Hemi's!! Shhhhhhh don't tell 'em the truth.

[dhjmd]

Absolutely hilarious threads...two years after the initial post now, and I, as a 33 year old with a hot brunette wife and a 10-year old boy, am attempting to relive the glory days my father used to describe to me when I was young. Sure, they were typically two-door high hp cars, but they rode like wagons, had little or no amenities inside, and were built at a time when the word technology meant power steering/brakes and seat belts (I've owned a 1965 Olds Cutlass two-door coupe since I was 18, that's exactly what they were). I bought bee #858 because it's a four door that we can all get in and cruise, do it fast, do it in style, and best of all, I bought her for 88% of MSRP!!! No markups like they are doing with the ****stangs right now.

By the way, I also spec'd an 2007 Corvette with the same equipment...almost $20K higher for a two-door, lower hp, higher risk of getting killed in an accident vehicle, where only two of us could jump in and go - sorry, but those are deal-killers no matter how you look at it.

[spenosk8er]

im going to bring back this thread in.... oh... 25 years, then reminisceand laugh... about when cars didn't fly, and I owned the coolest make! :lol:

[GTO1]

I love the post that says we don't drive Hemi's!! Shhhhhhh don't tell 'em the truth.

Kind of funny this thread rising from the dead but ...I got to stand by what I said...It's not a HEMI.

www.automobilemag.com][/url]

Digging deep in search of hemispherical combustion chambers.

With the possible exception of FORD, HEMI is the most celebrated set of four letters in all automobiledom. At the mere mention of the word, teens drool, musclecar mavens bow, and mothers draw small children under protective arms. The actor Jon Reep launched his career by uttering, "That thing got a Hemi?" in recent Dodge Ram television ads.



http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0407_hemi_head_old_800.jpg

Half of an original Hemi cylinder head - note the dome-shaped chamber and relatively great depth.


http://www.automobilemag.com/news/0407_hemi_head_new_800.jpg

5.7-liter Hemi Magnum V-8 cylinder head - nothing hemispherical about it. Note the irregular shape.


After three decades of retirement, the return of the Hemi engine ranks with the capture of Sadam Hussein as righteous proof of America's unyielding spirit. At least that's what I, as a member of the 1960s Hemi-owning and admiring generation, thought upon hearing that Chrysler was resuscitating its Hemi. But, upon close inspection of the new engine's innards, I was disappointed to find that the vaunted hemispherical combustion chambers are NOT part of the deal.

The HEMI name comes from the dome-shaped ceiling atop each cylinder inside some engines, a configuration that has seen wide aircraft, motorcycle, and racing use since it was introduced by obscure Belgian car maker Pipe in 1905. The key benefit is that the hemispherical dome facilitates extra large intake and exhaust valves, a relatively uninhibited pathway for fuel and air into the cylinder, and an easy means for spent exhaust gasses to escape. The easier it is for an engine to pump its working fluids, the more power it produces.

Chrysler first experimented with Hemi designs for World War II aircraft engine use. The fruit of that research appeared under the hoods of 1951 Chrysler Saratoga and New Yorker sedans. Chrysler's first hemi-headed V-8s produced 180 horsepower versus Cadillac's 160 hp and Oldsmobile's 135 hp, lighting the fuse on the original horsepower war.

DeSoto and Dodge picked up variations on the hemi theme for 1952-58 models. In 1964, when Chrysler needed a hot engine for stock car and drag racing, a second generation V-8 was introduced and a version informally called street hemi was offered to civilian Dodge and Plymouth buyers. My 1968 Hemi Road Runner generated a mighty 425 horsepower and ran over 110 mph in the quarter mile.

To find out how Chrysler's new 5.7-liter V-8 could be labeled Hemi in spite of the fact its combustion chambers look nothing like sliced grapefruit, I met with Bob Lee, Chrysler's vice president of powertrain product engineering.

Lee assured me no deception is afoot. The engineers responsible for Chrysler's new engine had better intentions than merely dusting off Hemis in the back of their closet. Early in the research phase, they discovered a combustion chamber that Porsche used for 1965-97 air-cooled 911s offered the ideal starting point for their new design. Porsche's head happened to be a hemi.

Engineers are not about to leave well enough alone so little from the Porsche design made the long trip to what's now called the 5.7-liter Hemi Magnum V-8. Much of the bowl area of the combustion chamber was filled in to encourage the fuel-air mixture to stir itself prior to ignition. The chamber is shallower than past Hemis so the top of the piston can be nearly flat, thereby saving reciprocating weight. The one vestige from Porsche's classic design is large valves rotated 90 degrees from the most common orientation (in a plane parallel to the crankshaft), and splayed at a 34.5-degree angle in the interests of free breathing.

The natural course of engineering evolution has moved Chrysler's hero powerplant far from its Porsche roots and severed all ties to the Hemis of yore. Even though it isn't a genuine hemi, this engine still packs a powerful punch as a marketing ploy.

[MCaesar]

I call it a modified hemi

Of course it is modified from the original design. A full hemi chamber would give great high end power but is not best for the street in terms of low RPM power, clean emissions, MPG, etc.

Chrysler engineer Tom Hoover, who is associated with the 426 Hemi, told Hot Rod that he had discussed the Elephant Engine's design with new-Hemi engineers. At least two of his suggestions - raising the camshaft (which let them use shorter pushrods, reducing valve train inertia, and have simpler exhaust rocker arms) and using twin spark plugs for cleaner running, and adding squish area (to make light load/low speed efficiency better and reduce emissions) were immediately adopted. Hoover emphasized that what they had learned from the original Hemi was used in the new version.



One bad thing:

One problem with the Hemi is that a speed density system is used for measuring air into the engine rather than air mass, so that cold air packages and such can throw the system off.



The original Hemis and the current one both have dual rocker shafts, large (similarly sized) valves, and two valves per cylinder arranged in a similar pattern for great efficiency. By having only two valves per cylinder, Chrysler is bucking a trend; by having two plugs per cylinder, they are also bucking an emerging trend of single spark plugs with dual electrodes.

The engine's unique two-valve hemispherical combustion chamber within an aluminum head provides impressive air flow, torque and power (hallmarks of the original), and gives the engine its throaty rumble. Fifty-six pounds lighter than the 5.9-liter V-8, the 5.7-liter Hemi produces 41% more power and 12% more peak torque, and appears to have substantial reserve for more power gains.



The Hemi design combustion chamber is one of the poorest designs for emissions - why do you think it took so long to get it into production? It almost did not make emissions test requirements even with the modifications. ... Today's Hemi is that (a "Hemi") in name only. [Editor's note: Bob is referring to the head design. It is not a true hemispherical head, but looks vaguely like a hemispherical head with parts filled in.]

[captken]

I started reading this thread without checking the date. I thought I'd lost my mind! Then I realized what was going on. We'll I'm from the old Dodge years, been driving 'em my whole life (all 62 years). The only difference that a 4-dr makes is that I can get people in/out of my backseat and the doors don't take up a space and a half when you open them. I work with a bunch of gear heads who drive Charges, 'stangs, and GTOs. We don't count doors folks! We count performance. My black Charger R/T is well respected by the others.

[IwantaMOPAR]

I started reading this thread without checking the date. I thought I'd lost my mind! Then I realized what was going on. We'll I'm from the old Dodge years, been driving 'em my whole life (all 62 years). The only difference that a 4-dr makes is that I can get people in/out of my backseat and the doors don't take up a space and a half when you open them. I work with a bunch of gear heads who drive Charges, 'stangs, and GTOs. We don't count doors folks! We count performance. My black Charger R/T is well respected by the others.

I can not post threads yet. I have searched this forum. I am start a new job soon and get a great car allowance. I am thinking about a charger r/t for my company car. I get mileage allowance as well. However I really need something that gets up to mid 20s on mpg. I can not find any threads here discussing mpg. I have test drove several chargers and have pretty much decided that is what I want. However if you are only averaging 17,19,20 mpg then I would probably buy something else.

Please post your mpg ratings in real world environement thank you

[srt4evah]

I can not post threads yet. I have searched this forum. I am start a new job soon and get a great car allowance. I am thinking about a charger r/t for my company car. I get mileage allowance as well. However I really need something that gets up to mid 20s on mpg. I can not find any threads here discussing mpg. I have test drove several chargers and have pretty much decided that is what I want. However if you are only averaging 17,19,20 mpg then I would probably buy something else.

Please post your mpg ratings in real world environement thank you

Look again, there are threads for gas mileage, you just have to search for them properly.

But for reference, here's an estimation based on the threads I know of:

6.1L = 12-18MPG (I get about 16)
5.7L = 13-20MPG
3.5L = 16-21MPG
2.7L = ?? Don't know, probably 17-22MPG

Those are averages, but the 5.7L has been known to get 24-27MPG on a full tank freeway trip.

[IwantaMOPAR]

Look again, there are threads for gas mileage, you just have to search for them properly.

But for reference, here's an estimation based on the threads I know of:

6.1L = 12-18MPG (I get about 16)
5.7L = 13-20MPG
3.5L = 16-21MPG
2.7L = ?? Don't know, probably 17-22MPG

Those are averages, but the 5.7L has been known to get 24-27MPG on a full tank freeway trip.

yeah I have heard that the MDS on the freeway you can get mid 20s it is city driving that hurts....I have my eyes on a 06 daytona orange hemi. Not dead set on the daytona package kinda cartoonish but the price and features are right. 2006 R/Ts and Daytonas are going for steals for what they cost brand new....

[roman371]

Concept gone bad....:no:

http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Pontiac_GTO_Concept.jpg


http://images.motortrend.com/features/112_0202_concepts+pontiac_gto_coupe+front_left_sid e_view.jpg

[TheBossHEMI]

Concept gone bad....:no:

http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Pontiac_GTO_Concept.jpg


http://images.motortrend.com/features/112_0202_concepts+pontiac_gto_coupe+front_left_sid e_view.jpg

Oh my...

[FurBurger]

its like it went from the cool guy to the nerd guy!!

[TheBossHEMI]

its like it went from the cool guy to the nerd guy!!

More like the old DA'ed haired, white t-shirt and blue jeaned cool cat on the block, to the old fart who's still thinks he's hip for the young crowd.

[sniper226]

Actually my take on the difference of concept vs production was how soon can we get this thing to market and keep it cheap. I know! Lets stick a corvette engine in one of our Australian Holden model cars the US folks haven't seen and call it a GTO! :(

They really just rushed it without every really giving much thought to the heritage of the GTO name. I really wanted to like it as I have been driving a Pontiac that I love for almost 10 years but the styling, lack of trunk space & back seat was just to much to keep me from buying. If I wanted a 2 seater car, I would buy one, not a car that is just a poser.

There is new info (other than just gas prices going up) that can squash the whole muscle car era all over again. See a thread I started on the sister forum regarding future CAFE & CO2 standards.

http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1045

[Betorioss]

I think Charger is a success. Look at all the cop cars too!

[captken]

yeah I have heard that the MDS on the freeway you can get mid 20s it is city driving that hurts....I have my eyes on a 06 daytona orange hemi. Not dead set on the daytona package kinda cartoonish but the price and features are right. 2006 R/Ts and Daytonas are going for steals for what they cost brand new....
Sorry to take so long to reply. Haven't checked this site in several months. In town the mileage is poor. Driving 2.3 miles to work with a lot of lights and no time to warm up I get 11-12 mpg. In normal town driving it's around 17. On the highway it's very speed sensitive. If I'm doing 65 I can get 25 mpg. Go up to 75-80 and I drop to 22.

[Crunchyriff]

Sorry to take so long to reply. Haven't checked this site in several months. In town the mileage is poor. Driving 2.3 miles to work with a lot of lights and no time to warm up I get 11-12 mpg. In normal town driving it's around 17. On the highway it's very speed sensitive. If I'm doing 65 I can get 25 mpg. Go up to 75-80 and I drop to 22.

for a 340-350 hp V8 , that is excellent, IMHO. I have no qualms with that.

My wife's 2001 Mazda Millenia S ( it takes Premium Fuel ONLY, mind you..) has a supercharged 2.3L V-6 that sports about 220 hp. It is supposed to get 28MPG Highway, but I've never seen that. ( I don't drive 65 MPH often..) I get about 25 tops, so If I get 22-23 with the Charger at speed (and with the blessing of regular unleaded), I'm a VERY happy camper.

I think folks are just catching onto the Charger. I did, after much apprehension of getting back into Mopar.

It should be around for awhile.

[nightstalker2]

well now that the charger is a selling success with car buyers. What is the next step for the charger say let make it an electric car. Now that is a crazy thought. But money is the fuel of production. I see they made a mini charger i forgot its name but it made my father look at it as a new car thought.

[optimus124]

well now that the charger is a selling success with car buyers. What is the next step for the charger say let make it an electric car. Now that is a crazy thought. But money is the fuel of production. I see they made a mini charger i forgot its name but it made my father look at it as a new car thought.

It would be interesting to have a hybrid muscule car. BTW the fun-size Charger is the Dodge Avenger.

http://www.dodge.com/en/2008/avenger/

[Reece]

I'll have to disagree with the whole concept of hybrid muscle... It just doesn't seem that cool to ask someone about their ride and they say, "Yeah, I just got the 4k Watt Battery installed. It added about another 20hp." Maybe alternative fuel muscle like the whole hydrogen thing or the corn ethanol would be pretty sweet. "Hey dude, I just upgraded the hydrogen regulator and O2 regulator from 40psi to 75. Dropped a whole second off of my 1/4 mile."

As for the Avenger, to be honest I was looking at that to get instead of the charger (gas was getting expensive, had the 3.5L HO available, and the whole entertainment HD thing looked interesting.) However, I awoke from this nightmare and realized that I wouldn't be happy with a Mini-me.

Also for the people who said that the Charger was going to be for soccer moms and no one would want it were highly off the target. Honestly I wanted to wait for the new Camero Coup as I used to be a Chevy lover... then I rented a Charger... Never looked back and now I am fully converted Mopar Fanatic.

[Crunchyriff]

I'll have to disagree with the whole concept of hybrid muscle... It just doesn't seem that cool to ask someone about their ride and they say, "Yeah, I just got the 4k Watt Battery installed. It added about another 20hp." Maybe alternative fuel muscle like the whole hydrogen thing or the corn ethanol would be pretty sweet. "Hey dude, I just upgraded the hydrogen regulator and O2 regulator from 40psi to 75. Dropped a whole second off of my 1/4 mile."

Very good point. Perception = reality for many. That said, ever drive a GM EV1? It will slap you back in your seat nice and firm when you mash the accelerator... pretty incredible for what it is.

That said, the Muscle Car is what it is. The late 21st, early 22nd century "Hot Rod" will probably be something altogether different, but it won't be called a "Muscle Car".

[Shenandoah2000]

Very good point. Perception = reality for many. That said, ever drive a GM EV1? It will slap you back in your seat nice and firm when you mash the accelerator... pretty incredible for what it is.

That said, the Muscle Car is what it is. The late 21st, early 22nd century "Hot Rod" will probably be something altogether different, but it won't be called a "Muscle Car".

I saw a story last night on the Speed Channel about an electric car, that beat a Camero on a dragstrip. The electric car did the quarter mile @ 11.5. Not too bad. It had no lag-time unlike the Camero and the electric had no gear-box. Instant power w/o the the need to rev-up a gasoline engine.

For me an all electric car will have to charge-up in sixty minutes or less, travel 4-500 miles at 65 MPH, and a driver will be able to recharge anywhere they stop, before I would consider an all electric. Also the trunk could not be crammed full of batteries. I do not know the model but, Lexus has a hybred, where the electric and gasoline motor has a combined 330 h. p.

Who knows what the future will bring.

Shenandoah2000

[KStryker]

Who knows what the future will bring.

Shenandoah2000

Flight?

[Importkiller1]

hopefully the gto in 2009 will be better than the crappy one now

[Crunchyriff]

Flight?

The Moller M400

http://www.moller.com/

[darsh39]

um feeling dumb right nw..

such a newbie i am.

like everyone has his/her own opinion.

so charger lovers wud keep loving it
nd vice versa.