Any update on when the 8 speed transmission is coming to SRT's? [Archive] - Dodge Charger Forums

: Any update on when the 8 speed transmission is coming to SRT's?


MCaesar
06-13-2011, 07:03 PM
I am leaning towards the 300C SRT8 as it is much better looking but will not buy either with this sorry tranny.

Grimlock
06-14-2011, 12:35 PM
I am leaning towards the 300C SRT8 as it is much better looking but will not buy either with this sorry tranny.

I agree with you. I think the '12 300 SRT8 they've shown in white is looking better than the Chargers I've seen so far.

08BlackTrackRT
06-14-2011, 12:38 PM
Everything I have heard from our Chrysler Rep so far is that the 8 speed may only be available in the V6 300 and Chargers next year..If I catch wind of anything else I will try to update you guys...

MCaesar
06-14-2011, 03:39 PM
Thanks for the update.

Grim -that one is sharp!

There just is not enough upgrade for the 2012 without the 8 speed to make it worth my while. Yeah, the broader torque curve will help but it is partly the principle for me- get it right Chrysler!

MCaesar
06-14-2011, 03:43 PM
This is all I have found:


During their press conference yesterday at the 2011 New York International Auto Show, Chrysler CEO Francois Olivier introduced a trio of new trimlines for the Chrysler 300 sedan and included in that group is the new 2012 Chrysler 300 S – the full sized sedan that will introduce consumer America to the 8-speed automatic transmission.

Since Fiat took the reins of the Chrysler Group, there has been the promise of 8-speed automatic transmission coming in the near future and with the introduction of the 2012 Chrysler 300 S, the future is here. This transmission is provided by ZF of Germany and until Chrysler’s Kokomo Indiana production facility is up to speed with producing these 8-speed gearboxes on American soil, Chrysler will be purchasing and shipping these transmissions directly from Germany. Because of this, Chrysler will only install the 8-speed ZF transmission in the V6-powered, rear wheel drive 2012 300 S sedans so if you opt for the 363 horsepower Hemi or Chrysler’s advanced all wheel drive system – you will be getting the same 5-speed gearbox found in the current 300 sedans.



http://www.torquenews.com/106/2012-chrysler-300-s-introduces-america-8-speed-transmission

ClubKenny
06-14-2011, 04:01 PM
I just wonder if it will mate up with my 2006 6.1 :)

Keavdog
06-14-2011, 04:02 PM
Automotive News - 8 Speed Tranny is a Go for 2012

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Absent Ram, Dodge plans to be a sportier animal

Bradford Wernle
Automotive News -- July 26, 2010 - 12:01 am ET

ENLARGE

The 2012 Dodge Charger is sleeker -- and keeps the cross-hair grille.

Photo credit: BRENDA PRIDDY & CO.



Related Stories
Chrysler's product plan: Tweaks, then tidal wave
With Ram pickups no longer part of its lineup, Dodge is repositioning itself as a sporty brand for all ages.

As the brands diverge, Ram keeps the distinctive ram's head logo, while Dodge will have a new script logo that will be revealed this year on the restyled Charger sedan and the Durango replacement.

Sources say Dodge may eventually lose its cross-hair grille, which will stay with Ram. But spy shots show the grille remains on the restyled Charger and Durango replacement, due late this year.

Even without pickups and commercial vehicles, Dodge still will have the broadest lineup among Chrysler Group's brands. Dodge ranges from a minivan to the Challenger sporty coupe.

Subcompact car: Last November, Joseph Veltri, Chrysler's product planning chief, showed a plan that included a subcompact about the size of a Ford Fiesta. The car is scheduled to arrive in 2013, likely as a 2014 model, and will be imported from a Fiat plant.

Caliber: The Caliber got a freshened interior this year. The car will continue in its current form until mid-2012, when a Fiat-based compact sedan will replace it, likely marketed as a 2013 model.

Avenger: The Avenger sedan, along with its sibling, the Chrysler Sebring, will be reskinned and re-engineered this year for the 2011 model year. Chrysler CEO Sergio Marchionne promises that every aspect of the Avenger will be improved. The car will get the Pentastar V-6 engine and a Fiat six-speed, dual-clutch transmission.

The exterior sheet metal will be less extensively changed than the skin on the Sebring. The Avenger will be replaced in 2013 by a mid-sized sedan based on Fiat's Compact Wide platform, likely for the 2014 model year.

Challenger: Next year Dodge's sporty coupe will get a minor reskin and interior tweaks, likely for the 2012 model year. The new Pentastar V-6 will replace the current V-6, the 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 will be retained and a 6.4-liter V-8 will replace the current 6.1-liter V-8. The eight-speed automatic transmission that Chrysler is licensing from ZF Group will be available. The revised Challenger is scheduled to remain in production until 2014 at least.

Charger: A restyled, re-engineered Charger rear-drive sedan goes into production in November, and sales will begin in February or March. The Charger will get new sheet metal. Spy photos have shown the car, most likely a 2012 model, will be sleeker than the current model but will retain the cross-hair grille, which eventually will go away and become the exclusive province of Ram. From the A-pillar back, the car draws on the styling of the 1969 Charger.

The car will be offered with three engines: the Pentastar 3.6-liter V-6, a 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 and a 6.4-liter Hemi V-8. The Charger will get the new eight-speed automatic transmission from ZF Group, both for V-6 and V-8 engines.

Viper: Production ended July 1. In November, Veltri said a replacement was under consideration for 2012 or later.

The company is considering a more fuel-efficient entry model with a 6.4-liter V-8 Hemi rated at over 450 hp.

Nitro: In their November presentation, executives said the Nitro would be freshened in 2011, including the addition of a V-6 Pentastar engine, most likely for the 2012 model year.

The future of the crossover after that is "under consideration," the company has said. It is unclear whether the Nitro will remain in the lineup.

Journey: The crossover has been one of the few recent hits from Chrysler Group. It is based on an extensively modified Mitsubishi GS platform, which also underpins the Sebring and Avenger.

The Journey interior gets a freshening in November for the 2011 model year. The crossover also will get the Pentastar V-6.

Full-sized crossover: In the fourth quarter, Dodge will offer a seven-passenger crossover that shares a unibody platform with the redesigned five-passenger Jeep Grand Cherokee. The platform is stretched to create the redesigned Dodge. The Durango name might be replaced with Magnum.

Grand Caravan: For the 2011 model year, the reskinned Grand Caravan will get an improved interior, some exterior styling tweaks and the Pentastar V-6. The next generation of the minivan is due in 2014.

bds71
06-15-2011, 01:49 AM
Automotive News - 8 Speed Tranny is a Go for 2012

see date of article in next quote ....

Automotive News -- July 26, 2010 - 12:01 am ET

Challenger: Next year Dodge's sporty coupe will get a minor reskin and interior tweaks, likely for the 2012 model year. The new Pentastar V-6 will replace the current V-6, the 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 will be retained and a 6.4-liter V-8 will replace the current 6.1-liter V-8. The eight-speed automatic transmission that Chrysler is licensing from ZF Group will be available. The revised Challenger is scheduled to remain in production until 2014 at least.

Charger: A restyled, re-engineered Charger rear-drive sedan goes into production in November, and sales will begin in February or March. The Charger will get new sheet metal. Spy photos have shown the car, most likely a 2012 model, will be sleeker than the current model but will retain the cross-hair grille, which eventually will go away and become the exclusive province of Ram. From the A-pillar back, the car draws on the styling of the 1969 Charger.
The car will be offered with three engines: the Pentastar 3.6-liter V-6, a 5.7-liter Hemi V-8 and a 6.4-liter Hemi V-8. The Charger will get the new eight-speed automatic transmission from ZF Group, both for V-6 and V-8 engines.

the 2012 Challenger and Charger are already being ordered - and the 8 speed tranny is not an option. the article is 2 years old - looks like Chrysler missed the mark by a stretch. maybe next year's models will incorporate it?

i personally don't care for the new looks of the Charger, and an 8-speed tranny will not sway me to buy a new one. but, for those for whom the new styling is appealing....and one thing this article does address is the loss of the cross-hair grill. the future does not look bright for the Charger my friends....not bright at all.....

atvman
06-15-2011, 04:00 AM
V6's get it in MY2012
V8's get it in MY2013

Grand Cherokee, Durango, and Ram 1500 V6 models get it in 2013 as well. Not sure about the Wrangler, Liberty, and Nitro though.

ResumeSpeed
06-15-2011, 03:34 PM
V6's get it in MY2012
V8's get it in MY2013

Grand Cherokee, Durango, and Ram 1500 V6 models get it in 2013 as well. Not sure about the Wrangler, Liberty, and Nitro though.
Many V8 models will have it in 2013 model year. GC/Durango/Ram 1500 V6 get 6-spd for 2012 models. 2011 is the last year for the Nitro.

Grimlock
06-15-2011, 04:57 PM
I was thinking about this yesterday. I fear that the new SRT8 is going to be a sales flop versus the '06-'10 run. I hope I am wrong. I fear they missed with the styling and with the drivetrain. I guess the good news is there isn't any real competition in the class until the Chevy releases their updated Pontiac GXP. The bad news is that they really haven't upgraded enough to make the new car attractive. I really don't expect that many people to really want to upgrade their '06 for a '12 SRT8, and that is a shame. It isn't that the new car is a bad car, it just isn't an exceptional one.

If I were buying a new car in the price range, I suspect I would be buying a Boss Mustang. Not that the Mustang is the same size car, but it is the one I would buy. Hopefully Dodge does something soon to spice up the forthcoming SRT8!

bds71
06-16-2011, 02:08 AM
I fear that the new SRT8 is going to be a sales flop versus the '06-'10 run.

actually, i hope you're right - it means the value of the 06-10 models will increase or at least hold their value better/longer. seeing as most of us on this forum already have one of these - well that makes it a win/win :) for those that don't, you might want to consider trying to get one with low miles/stock....i'm just saying :)

Grimlock
06-16-2011, 12:35 PM
One person mentioned that it might be a reaction to the Fast & Furious movie, and that could be it. If so, I expect the price won't remain high forever.

Paladin
06-16-2011, 01:18 PM
As long as they do it in time for my 40th (2014) - guess I can wait. ;)

MCaesar
06-16-2011, 06:27 PM
Selected V8 models will have it in 2013 model year, SRT models may not have it then. GC/Durango/Ram 1500 V6 get 6-spd for 2012 models. 2011 is the last year for the Nitro.

SRT is killing me

How many decades does it take to replace a transmission?

MCaesar
06-16-2011, 06:36 PM
i was thinking about this yesterday. I fear that the new srt8 is going to be a sales flop versus the '06-'10 run. I hope i am wrong. I fear they missed with the styling and with the drivetrain. I guess the good news is there isn't any real competition in the class until the chevy releases their updated pontiac gxp. The bad news is that they really haven't upgraded enough to make the new car attractive. I really don't expect that many people to really want to upgrade their '06 for a '12 srt8, and that is a shame. It isn't that the new car is a bad car, it just isn't an exceptional one.

If i were buying a new car in the price range, i suspect i would be buying a boss mustang. Not that the mustang is the same size car, but it is the one i would buy. Hopefully dodge does something soon to spice up the forthcoming srt8!

summed it up perfectly

WinstonWolf
06-16-2011, 06:46 PM
IDK man i never even considered an srt8 charger before the redesign. Im sure there are ppl like me that didnt like the last one but like this one. We shall see.

Big Country
06-16-2011, 10:55 PM
I agree with WinstonWolf. I personally prefer the design of the 2011 to the previous generation, which I liked as well. Well enough that I bought an 06 Charger when they came out. I even like the 2011 Charger better than the Challenger, which I have been a huge fan of ever since it came out.

This new design seems to be pulling in a new bunch of owners from other brands that never would have considered Dodge before. What a person likes in the looks of a car are very personal though. No different than what kind of women you like...lol.

I know of a lot more people that were disappointed with the styling of the previous generation than the new one. I'm not saying that's the rule, just that is what I have heard from talking with my friends who are also Mopar people.

I don't think the new SRT8s will be a sales flop. If you want SRT to keep making them everybody better hope they aren't. Just like the last versions, the prices will drop after the first year or so. Performance is going to be the main selling point of the 2012 models. Based on what we are seeing with some of the 6.4 Challengers the 6.4 Chargers and 300s should outperform (which it better with the additional hp/tq) the 6.1 versions while getting slightly better gas mileage and having a greatly improved interior which was always the weakest link in the previous generation. The materials they are using for the new interiors are very impressive.

But hey, to each their own. I hope they sell extremely well because I want SRT to be around for a long time to come. I still plan on purchasing a 392 Challenger myself at some point down the road.

drjimm5
06-17-2011, 06:24 AM
2011+ design is less agressive, particularly in the SRT version. The lack of the hood scoop, one of my favorite front design elements, is greatly disappointing. I wish I could graft the front/sides of the 2006-10 with the rear/interior of the 2011. Oh well. As it relates to the 8-speed, we don't need no stinking 8 gears. A halfway decent 6-speed manumatic would have been fine. Too many gears equals too many shift points and greatly differing behavior at different throttle loads. Hopefully the manual solves my potential problem, but I'm not even convinced based solely on appearance, that the new cars can do it for me. Regardless of how well something performs, I can't bring myself to consider it unless I really like the style. Time will tell for us and the cars ...

MCaesar
06-17-2011, 07:45 AM
Styling is subjective- but far more people I have seen do not like the new front end at all.

What is NOT subjective is using a 15 year old transmission nor the modest power bump for the car.

What is not subjective is selling a $48,000 Challenger with 470HP versus a $48,000 550HP GT500 that can be easilyupgraded past 600HP

Chrysler missed the mark on the new SRT

WinstonWolf
06-17-2011, 11:47 AM
Personally i dont care about the chally at all, since i would never own one. Buy the gt500 if u prefer.

The front end can be color matched if you prefer. The lack of a scoop doesnt bother me either since it wasnt functional anyway and this hood is.

This leaves us the power issue and the tranny. I wish it had at least 6 gears, since my current car has 6 gears and about 100 hp less. But thats not going to keep me from buying one. And as far as im concerned the motor is great. The chally guys are claiming that dynos show the 392 is underrated. I will wind up doing a tune/intake/exhaust anyway which will put me at roughly 500 hp. If that isnt enough for you i dont know what to say. There will always be a guy w a faster car out there. My 2 cents.

Big Country
06-17-2011, 09:14 PM
The thing to remember is this. With every style update/change you are going to gain some people and lose some people. That's just how it is. You can't make everybody happy.

A 40hp increase is a pretty decent gain if you ask me. Just think about how many mods you have to buy (and how much money you have to spend) to gain an extra 40hp/40tq. Now think about doing that and having to build in the reliability that a manufacturer has to in their engines. Plus, as was mentioned before, they were able to make that torque available earlier in the rpm range. So in areas of the rpm band it is possible there is an even larger gain than they are mentioning. If the new 6.4 isn't actually putting out closer to 500hp I would be very surprised based on some of the times people are running at the track http://youtu.be/ZFbxZZtywZ0 It's an old video and I'm sure it has been posted before but it's still impressive.

Keavdog
06-18-2011, 03:34 AM
Love my 392 chally. I'm pretty ignorant on the pros of the 8 speed auto.
I will say dropping the 3.73 getrag LSD in my charger really changed the beast. I could see offering a shorter rear with higher 5th gear as a plus. My chally has 3.92 gears and 1-4 are monsters for acceleration but 5th and 6th are great highway gears dropping the rpm down significantly for cruising.

afterburner
06-18-2011, 01:38 PM
I tried one of the 4.7L Tundra's about 8 years ago and it had a 5spd auto. It was a perfect Nervous Nellie, changing gears at the slightest change in grade, the tiniest touch on the gas pedal, and it was positively a thrill to drive with the cruise control on when the road took a slight upgrade. I named it the Flea as it hopped around its gears like one.

I am not a really big fan of many things the 5spd in the SRT8 does, but at least it is not a Flea. If anything, one of my biggest complaints is that even with the Predator shift points set higher, it seems like Chrysler went out of their way to see to it that the tranny would lug the transmission whenever possible, like getting into third before you had even completed a turn from a redlight or stop sign. I have to stomp mine to get it to change down when I straighten out on the new line. All turns with it I now call EPA turns.

So I find myself a bit perplexed why someone would want an 8 speed tranny or more. It would seem that the very purpose would be to be changing gears all the time. I wonder, why would someone want that? I think I would favor something like the tranny the Murano has (or had, I haven't kept up with it), if it were done right.

I was watching Top Gear one evening and they were testing our some new Lexus with an 8 speed or more automatic. They didn't get it either. The thing was never satisfied with which gear it was in.

And a six-speed stick in a place like LA? If you drink coffee, you will need to grow a third arm. I sold my 5-speed Dakota stick after moving back here because I felt like I was rowing a boat on our "freeways". And I love a stick.

MCaesar
06-19-2011, 10:42 AM
If you think this 5 speed is a good transmission you clearly know little about performance cars.

1. The gap between ratios is huge.

2. It is very slow shifting compared to modern transmissions

3. The 6.1 motor is very weak on the bottom end.

Ever notice the Jeckyll and Hyde personality? Because down low the engine is weak and you exacerbate that with a transmission with both big ratio gaps and a propensity to upshift every second.

Seriously, if you think this transmission is good for a 2011 performance car you are not a performance enthusiast

afterburner
06-19-2011, 01:55 PM
MCaesar,

You know, there really isn't any way to extract even a weak signal in my post that I think the current Mercedes 5 spd automasher is good for a 2011 performance car. It is the second most frustrating automatic I have ever had. The Tundra gets first prize in that category. Everything you said about is not only true, but the sources of all my frustrations with it, and I have a few more.

Having now said I do not think the current tranny is good for a 2011 performance car, I just can't imagine having an 8 speed constantly shifting all the time. Heck, it might turn out to be a tortoise in the shifting department just like the current one is!

Five well-spaced speeds, set-up in non-EPA grovelling Jekyll and Hyde fashion, might not be too bad a choice considering the alternative of a Nervous Nellie, can't make her mind up fussbudget of a tranny. And with the 392? With more torque down-under? It might even be a better way to use a wider powerband. No point having a wide powerband and mating it to say an 8-speed transmission more attuned to keeping a motor in a narrow powerband up top.

And I must say, I really did not appreciate the tone of your response. Although I fully agree with the technical substance. Perfectly OK to disagree, perhaps even stridently, with what I said, but casting character insinuations about something I didn't say.....well I am not sure what else can be said except that that crosses the line.

afterburner
06-19-2011, 02:13 PM
Apologies for forgetting to mention. MCaesar raised some interesting points which can extend the original question a little bit (Why an 8 Speed?).

He accurately described the Jekyll and Hyde personality of the 5 spd. auto., and how this is such a disconnect with this high-strung 6.1. Given that there are no direct replacements available that are better, are there any other options to the Predator's canned shift point settings?

Now, when talking about a much wider powerband in the 6,4, with more torque and ponies at the low-end, why would that be a good match with the 8 speed auto.? Wouldn't more gears favor optimization of a narrow powerband such as in the 6.1?

Part Deux
06-19-2011, 05:49 PM
Considering that torque is reduced during shift, why in the world would you want to spend more time shifting?

8 speeds are considerably more expensive to produce...

99.999% of purchasers want to get in their cars and drive. They want their cars to last when they make a few WOT runs. There are options available to those few people that truly want to live in a higher performance world, but it costs money. Most people don't want to spend that extra money, and the mfg's recognize that fact.

Player87
06-21-2011, 12:37 PM
hey,
I have a 2009 srt8 charger and a friend got the 2009 Lexus ISF.
I can tell you the 8-speed double shift transmission is the best thing in the world.
You wont even recognize that the car is shifting. There is no gap in acceleration.
If you have never driven a car with a double shift transmission, then dont say that the 5 speed transmission of the charger is a good transmission,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox

drjimm5
06-21-2011, 04:20 PM
hey,
I have a 2009 srt8 charger and a friend got the 2009 Lexus ISF.
I can tell you the 8-speed double shift transmission is the best thing in the world.
You wont even recognize that the car is shifting. There is no gap in acceleration.
If you have never driven a car with a double shift transmission, then dont say that the 5 speed transmission of the charger is a good transmission,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-Shift_Gearbox
There are many different ways in which manufacturers are addressing transmissions these days. Unless it's really well done, 8-speeds can be bad the same way 5 could be good. At some point, enough gears becomes a CVT. I'd like a transmission to funtion well as an automatic if you are stuck in traffic or driving more leisurely but still be capable of quick manual shifts to have some fun. Most double-clutches do this pretty well but I doubt we'll get that.

Grimlock
06-21-2011, 06:00 PM
There are many different ways in which manufacturers are addressing transmissions these days. Unless it's really well done, 8-speeds can be bad the same way 5 could be good. At some point, enough gears becomes a CVT. I'd like a transmission to funtion well as an automatic if you are stuck in traffic or driving more leisurely but still be capable of quick manual shifts to have some fun. Most double-clutches do this pretty well but I doubt we'll get that.

Most double clutch trannies would be considered unsatisfactory for all Chargers with the possible exception of the SRT8. They are known to be extremely problematic at low speeds like when parking. They are great in a performance application, but not for a mass market car. I know some are improving, but this is generally how they perform. Many car companies are avoiding this by going with a single clutch...like Lamborghini.

MCaesar
06-22-2011, 08:45 AM
Folks really need to look at this objectively and stop being such homers

1. The current transmission design is 15 years old and extremely deficient for a hogh performance car in 2012

2. The competition is getting it done.

Heck, Hyundai has just built an 8 speed from ground up faster than Chrysler can lease one!

Paladin
06-22-2011, 09:49 AM
Folks really need to look at this objectively and stop being such homers

1. The current transmission design is 15 years old and extremely deficient for a hogh performance car in 2012

2. The competition is getting it done.

Heck, Hyundai has just built an 8 speed from ground up faster than Chrysler can lease one!

Can't argue there, Hyundai's been making big moves in the last few years. Having said that, people are not the same- what you consider to be in need of replacement or upgrade, it seems there are some who do not agree with you. That they do not is no cause to start name calling, man.

As far as I'm concerned, Chrysler has enough problems keeping these cars running, lets not throw them any curve balls, eh?

For instance, I'm blown away that the 2011s have issues with door handles. Door handles! Seriously? Let them get THAT right first...then maybe they can try their hand at something infinitely more complex...like building their own 8spd tranny instead of leasing it from someone else.

Big Country
06-22-2011, 06:36 PM
Heck, Hyundai has just built an 8 speed from ground up faster than Chrysler can lease one!

I'm with you on people need to stop freaking out about the 8spd transmissions. Especially considering not a single one of them know how it will perform. People complained about the 5 speeds, then the 6 speeds. People just like to complain :)

That being said, Hyundai may not have hit the nail on the head with their transmission. I'm sure they will improve it over time, but this is what Car & Driver had to say about it.

Regardless of engine, every 2012 Genesis will have an eight-speed automatic. As opposed to many other automakers that use transmissions from outside suppliers, Hyundai chose to design its own slushbox. Maybe it shouldn’t have. Eight speeds allow for a fine balance of economy and zest, but the transmission is slow. Up- and downshifts drag, and we were able to count off full seconds before getting what we wanted after stomping through the kickdown switch. All cars have a gate for manual actuation, but when the transmission takes longer to respond than an estranged fourth wife, it’s hard to care.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/11q2/2012_hyundai_genesis_3.8_r-spec_5.0-first_drive_review

drjimm5
06-26-2011, 06:24 PM
Most double clutch trannies would be considered unsatisfactory for all Chargers with the possible exception of the SRT8. They are known to be extremely problematic at low speeds like when parking. They are great in a performance application, but not for a mass market car. I know some are improving, but this is generally how they perform. Many car companies are avoiding this by going with a single clutch...like Lamborghini.

I disagree. The DCTs are getting MUCH better and the list of manufacturers that are using it is longer than your arm. Lambo is trying something different that is supposed to save weight, so we'll see. The Veyron, a cost-no-object, no compromise, technology showpiece, uses DCT and is smooth as an auto and quick when it needs to be. On the other end, VW has been putting these in cheaper cars for a while. Even BMW's hated SMG is getting there. Porsche's PDK is excellent. You CAN make a DCT to be the best of both worlds for the right price, and that would be the stumbling block to putting it into Chargers, not the technological aspect of it. The same transmission doesn't belong in the $20,000 bas Charger as it does in the R/T or SRT 8 and that's what we are getting. I only hope the 6-speed manual becomes a reality and that would put an end to worrying for me...

Grimlock
06-26-2011, 07:08 PM
I disagree. The DCTs are getting MUCH better and the list of manufacturers that are using it is longer than your arm. Lambo is trying something different that is supposed to save weight, so we'll see. The Veyron, a cost-no-object, no compromise, technology showpiece, uses DCT and is smooth as an auto and quick when it needs to be. On the other end, VW has been putting these in cheaper cars for a while. Even BMW's hated SMG is getting there. Porsche's PDK is excellent. You CAN make a DCT to be the best of both worlds for the right price, and that would be the stumbling block to putting it into Chargers, not the technological aspect of it. The same transmission doesn't belong in the $20,000 bas Charger as it does in the R/T or SRT 8 and that's what we are getting. I only hope the 6-speed manual becomes a reality and that would put an end to worrying for me...

I just don't see a twin clutch becoming the transmission in the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, etc. Everything I've read or seen says that these are quite annoying at slow speeds. I know MotorWeek mentions this VERY often. The only first hand experience I have is in performance applications like the EVO.

EDIT: I believe Aston martin is one of the twin clutch transmissions that has been given many negative reviews in particular. I remember several magazine reviews reporting that the car was not worth buying based on the transmission alone, but I might be confusing this with another car....Masterati? (Sounds like some Charger reviews!)

drjimm5
06-28-2011, 05:41 AM
I just don't see a twin clutch becoming the transmission in the Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, etc. Everything I've read or seen says that these are quite annoying at slow speeds. I know MotorWeek mentions this VERY often. The only first hand experience I have is in performance applications like the EVO.

EDIT: I believe Aston martin is one of the twin clutch transmissions that has been given many negative reviews in particular. I remember several magazine reviews reporting that the car was not worth buying based on the transmission alone, but I might be confusing this with another car....Masterati? (Sounds like some Charger reviews!)

Trickle-down technology will prevail. I imagine it's tough to offer smooth automatic performance and lightening-quick manual shifts, but if companies keep after it, I think it will show in any car with sporting aspirations. Aston's previous Sport-shift was really just an automatic that shifted, and not too good. They have recently introduced a newer version that is getting better reviews. Cost is a factor as well and unless a company can use the technology across a wide range, like VW/Audi and unlike current D/J/C, you probably don't see it. I'd guess with Fiat's involvement and if that ultimately sticks, we would see some of that Ferrari/Maserati stuff down the line in watered-down versions. Remember, Ferrari is the only manuf. in the world that "forces" it's customers to use these transmissions since they don't offer anything else anymore. Only they can get away with that right now but eventually others will join.

PS: My Aston is a 6-speed manual ...

Grimlock
06-28-2011, 01:10 PM
Trickle-down technology will prevail. I imagine it's tough to offer smooth automatic performance and lightening-quick manual shifts, but if companies keep after it, I think it will show in any car with sporting aspirations. Aston's previous Sport-shift was really just an automatic that shifted, and not too good. They have recently introduced a newer version that is getting better reviews. Cost is a factor as well and unless a company can use the technology across a wide range, like VW/Audi and unlike current D/J/C, you probably don't see it. I'd guess with Fiat's involvement and if that ultimately sticks, we would see some of that Ferrari/Maserati stuff down the line in watered-down versions. Remember, Ferrari is the only manuf. in the world that "forces" it's customers to use these transmissions since they don't offer anything else anymore. Only they can get away with that right now but eventually others will join.

PS: My Aston is a 6-speed manual ...

I did see that Austin Martin has actually gone back from the twin clutch, to a basic automatic in their new cars. They say that the twin clutch is too heavy and take too much space. So once again, I am not sure that everyone is going to go this route and that this will become the common transmission. I think a CVT is going to be the more common transmission in basic cars like the Camry, Civic, Accord, etc.

And I didn't mean for the Aston Martin stuff to be an attack on you or your car. I am sure your signature did bring it to mind though on a subconscious level.

drjimm5
06-29-2011, 06:51 AM
I did see that Austin Martin has actually gone back from the twin clutch, to a basic automatic in their new cars. They say that the twin clutch is too heavy and take too much space. So once again, I am not sure that everyone is going to go this route and that this will become the common transmission. I think a CVT is going to be the more common transmission in basic cars like the Camry, Civic, Accord, etc.

And I didn't mean for the Aston Martin stuff to be an attack on you or your car. I am sure your signature did bring it to mind though on a subconscious level.

CVT is probably the best and I'm sure eventually they will get it to handle bigger HP. I'm not saying twin-clutch is the end-point, just that it's the best of the current manumatics. I'm sure things will evolve at the higher-end and reach the others. My point is that it would not have been price-prohibitive to offer a decent TC instead of a regular 8-speed in the R/T or SRT, if we even see that. Some things I've read seem to indicate it is not definite for the performance cars, but I can't see them letting this 5-speed go on for the 2012-16 run. Maybe there's hope yet ...

MCaesar
07-04-2011, 11:52 AM
In the same time Chrysler has been farting around trying to license a 7 or 8 speed tranny, Hyundai has built one from scratch. Right now it is not the best shifting tranny but I bet within a year or two it will be very good. Look at the incredible progress in the Genesis - now offered with a 429HP 5.0!

If Chrysler wants to be known as a performance manufacturer they need to get on the stick.

Grimlock
07-04-2011, 12:46 PM
Last I heard, Chrysler had already licensed a ZF transmission....and this was before the '11 cars hit.

MCaesar
07-04-2011, 04:42 PM
Are they delivering them to Detroit via Pony Express?

Such incompetence

ResumeSpeed
07-04-2011, 05:10 PM
What is NOT subjective is using a 15 year old transmission nor the modest power bump for the car.
Both of those issues will be addressed on upcoming models.

MCaesar
07-05-2011, 07:59 AM
I will take you for your word as your word is beyond question.

I can easily get another 2-3 years out of my Charger so that time frame works for me.

I have 140,000+ miles and the only real trouble was the water pump.

Chatt69chgr
07-07-2011, 07:58 AM
Looks like I will have to wait until 2013 to get a R/T Road & Track Hemi Charger for the wife. I won't buy it without the 8-speed ZF trans.

I'd also like to see them offer Torred again. I don't want to pay an extra $1000 for Redline red.

Grimlock
07-07-2011, 12:54 PM
I know they charged extra for TorRed too.

WinstonWolf
07-07-2011, 04:34 PM
Both of those issues will be addressed on upcoming models.

Upcoming models meaning 2012 or 2013?

Part Deux
07-07-2011, 04:41 PM
Here's a question for the 8 speed wanters,

Would you pay $1,000 more for an 8-spd over the 5-spd?

Grimlock
07-07-2011, 05:11 PM
Someone posted the ZF 8-spd time table a while back and they were starting with the 6 cylinder cars I believe in 2012, then adding it to the 5.7L cars in 2013, and I don't believe they had any time set for the SRT8.

ResumeSpeed
07-07-2011, 07:48 PM
Upcoming models meaning 2012 or 2013?
No power changes for 2012 (other than I think SRT specs are going to show 470/470).

For 2013-2014 SRT, watch out. To say that power gains are going to be modest would be an understatement!

Grimlock
07-07-2011, 07:50 PM
No power changes for 2012 (other than I think SRT specs are going to show 470/470).

For 2013-2014 SRT, watch out. To say that power gains are going to be modest would be an understatement!

Yay, Mangnacharger here we come!!! Now if only they make the car look better too.

WinstonWolf
07-07-2011, 09:35 PM
No power changes for 2012 (other than I think SRT specs are going to show 470/470).

For 2013-2014 SRT, watch out. To say that power gains are going to be modest would be an understatement!

Wow. I am pulling my 2012 SRT-8 order tomorrow. No way am I going to spend $45k on a car and then find out in January that it's going to get a huge power increase.

If by some miracle RS is off on this, or I just want a n/a car and don't want the supercharger, I can buy a 2012 SRT8 a year from now.

My dealer told me last week I was one of only 2 orders for the Charger SRT8. The demand just isn't that great for these cars.

Thank you very much for the info and thank you for saving me from paying that kind of money for a car that is gimped in 6 months...

MCaesar
07-08-2011, 01:02 PM
Here's a question for the 8 speed wanters,

Would you pay $1,000 more for an 8-spd over the 5-spd?

Without the slightest hesitation!

It is not just the number of gears but the old tech in the 5 speed and huge gap between 2nd and 3rd

I could do with a 6 speed

Yes, I would pay for it.

I would also pay another $2,000 more for a forged motor with stronger rings and valve springs

WinstonWolf
07-08-2011, 01:44 PM
I pulled my order today and already got my deposit refunded. I could live with the 5 speed but the prospect of an 8 speed + a big power boost next year was too much.

MCaesar is spot on, EVERY car out there in this class has a better transmission. My 2009 G8 GT has a six speed! If I had a 2012 and I found out in six months when the big car shows start that the 2013 will have an 8 speed and a lot more power I would have been pissed.

Grimlock
07-08-2011, 02:12 PM
Yeah I would definitely pay $1K for a 8-spd. That would be a CHEAP upgrade!!! They are doing it all wrong and should be adding it to the SRT8 first, not last.

Part Deux
07-08-2011, 04:14 PM
Yeah I would definitely pay $1K for a 8-spd. That would be a CHEAP upgrade!!! They are doing it all wrong and should be adding it to the SRT8 first, not last.
Most customers will not pay for that upgrade.

ResumeSpeed
07-08-2011, 05:53 PM
I pulled my order today and already got my deposit refunded. I could live with the 5 speed but the prospect of an 8 speed + a big power boost next year was too much.
Power gains could be 2013MY or 2014MY, that decision is still being pondered - and it may only be in special editions models that will cost more. As for the 8-speed (or 9-speed) in the SRT it is more likely to be 2014MY. The new transmission may hit the 5.7 models in 2013MY.

MCaesar
07-08-2011, 07:19 PM
Most customers will not pay for that upgrade.

I completely disagree

$1,000 is not significant on a$45,000 car

Grimlock
07-08-2011, 07:26 PM
I completely disagree

$1,000 is not significant on a$45,000 car

Agreed. It is cheaper than the Mopar cat-back exhaust and would offer MUCH bigger gains. It might even pay for itself by avoiding the gas guzzler tax (or lowering it) and saving in fuel cost over the term of ownership.

Part Deux
07-08-2011, 07:41 PM
I completely disagree

$1,000 is not significant on a$45,000 car

On a V6 it's significant cost increase, and that was what my response was to. Too many 8 spd threads :)

As I said before, I think an 8spd is a waste on a SRT8. Too much time wasted shifting and hunting gears.

Grimlock
07-08-2011, 07:49 PM
On a V6 it's significant cost increase, and that was what my response was to. Too many 8 spd threads :)

As I said before, I think an 8spd is a waste on a SRT8. Too much time wasted shifting and hunting gears.

I don't have any issues with the 7-speed transmission in our E350 which is a V6. It is actually pretty darn awesome. I figure this is pretty much identical to a Charger in weight and power, right? The E350 will do 0-60 in 6.3 with only 267hp and at right around 4,100 lbs with the 7-spd. It is rated at 19/26 MPG.

Ddaddy
07-08-2011, 08:38 PM
No power changes for 2012 (other than I think SRT specs are going to show 470/470).

For 2013-2014 SRT, watch out. To say that power gains are going to be modest would be an understatement!

I guess that means I can still hold out hope for this...


http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61012&d=1310175460

WinstonWolf
07-08-2011, 11:24 PM
Power gains could be 2013MY or 2014MY, that decision is still being pondered - and it may only be in special editions models that will cost more. As for the 8-speed (or 9-speed) in the SRT it is more likely to be 2014MY. The new transmission may hit the 5.7 models in 2013MY.


I may still wind up with a 2012, but I'm going to wait and see.

MCaesar
07-09-2011, 07:17 AM
On a V6 it's significant cost increase, and that was what my response was to. Too many 8 spd threads :)

As I said before, I think an 8spd is a waste on a SRT8. Too much time wasted shifting and hunting gears.

The current transmission is out of date and a poor performer.

I like supporting Chrysler as much as the next person but sometimes you have to be able to call them out when they drop the ball. It is inexcusable that they rolled out the 2012 SRT8 with a 15 year old transmission.

Any true enthusiast would easily pay $1,000 more for a better transmission.

Not even a question.

Big Country
07-09-2011, 02:05 PM
But right now Dodge has to address its most important need and utilize the new ZF 8spd transmission where it will have the most impact. Since they have limited numbers of the 8spd available until they start producing it themselves, the greatest need is with the V-6 models. They will benefit from the new transmission more than the 5.7 and 6.4 equipped models. The higher number of gears enables the V-6 engine to stay in its powerband more which will help to increase its performance numbers. Since the 5.7 and 6.4 have much broader hp/torque curves, they will not see as much a performance gain as the V-6 will. Their biggest improvement, and a welcome one, will be in gas mileage most likely.

The factors at play here are initial limited availability of the 8spd transmission, the V-6 will benefit the most from the new transmission and the V-6 models are your highest volume sellers. It's a business decision plain and simple that they are the ones to receive the 8spd first. Then, as the Kokomo plant starts producing the transmission under license from ZF, start filtering it out to other models.

Is it an ideal situation? No. But it's what Chrysler and the rest of us are faced with. Kind of like the saying goes, "It is what it is."

Grimlock
07-09-2011, 02:42 PM
But right now Dodge has to address its most important need and utilize the new ZF 8spd transmission where it will have the most impact. Since they have limited numbers of the 8spd available until they start producing it themselves, the greatest need is with the V-6 models. They will benefit from the new transmission more than the 5.7 and 6.4 equipped models. The higher number of gears enables the V-6 engine to stay in its powerband more which will help to increase its performance numbers. Since the 5.7 and 6.4 have much broader hp/torque curves, they will not see as much a performance gain as the V-6 will. Their biggest improvement, and a welcome one, will be in gas mileage most likely.

The factors at play here are initial limited availability of the 8spd transmission, the V-6 will benefit the most from the new transmission and the V-6 models are your highest volume sellers. It's a business decision plain and simple that they are the ones to receive the 8spd first. Then, as the Kokomo plant starts producing the transmission under license from ZF, start filtering it out to other models.

Is it an ideal situation? No. But it's what Chrysler and the rest of us are faced with. Kind of like the saying goes, "It is what it is."


I understand that, but I also expect a number of SRT8 potential buyers to not buy one like WinstonWolf. They may end up doing the smart thing and buying a pre-owned one, and then wait for Dodge to release the SRT8 with all the bells and whistles. If Dodge can't make the SRT8 meet customer expectations (and I don't think they are) then they shouldn't release one until they can. That's my attitude anyway...

Of course with Chevy planning to release their GXP replacement sometime soon, Dodge may have some SERIOUS competition and may just miss the boat. They are in a perfect position with no real competition right now, and they just aren't taking advantage. It is VERY frustrating for those of us who are pulling for Dodge.

And especially when all they tell us all they are working on is adding sweet stereos... :rolleyes2:

MCaesar
07-09-2011, 03:42 PM
Big Country you are missing the real issue

The real issue is this whole debate shows how far Chrysler has fallen.

It takes them several years just to roll out a transmission already designed and in production where other manufacturers could design and produce their own transmission in LESS time.

THAT is the problem.

Let's not pretend for 1 minute that Chrysler doesn't know the 5spd is outdated. They just can't do anything about it faster than a snail pace.

At the very least, all Pentastars should have come standard with it.

Big Country
07-09-2011, 06:14 PM
No, I am just realistic. I don't think anybody will dispute that Chrysler is down right now, but they are coming back. Remember the whole bleeding dry by Daimler and the debacle with Cerberus? They were absolutely ran into the ground. A lot of people are forgetting just how bad of shape Chrysler was in just 2 years ago. It takes awhile to get back on your feet when you were in the position Chrysler was. They were the blink of an eye from dissolving as a company and were in the worst shape financially of the "Big 3" and you just don't recover overnight.

It's very easy for us to set on our computers and be armchair CEOs but the reality is, there are things going on behind the scenes that we will never be aware of that impact the decisions being made.

Chrysler is probably still working with fewer resources (especially financially) than what other manufacturers are right now and to see what they have done with their 2011 lineup is very impressive if you ask me. Across the board the lineup has received praise for being better than the models they are replacing. Do they still have a ways to go? Sure. But I would venture to say even Chrysler would admit that.

I can understand outsourcing the transmission and a lot of companies do it. Why reinvent the wheel if there is a perfectly acceptable transmission out there capable of meeting your needs? Chrysler's resources were probably tapped over the past 3-4 years which would have made it difficult for them to develop their own transmission when they were just trying to survive as a company in general. At least once the Kokomo plant is retooled they can build the number of transmissions they are going to need.

As far as other manufacturers developing their own transmission in a shorter time frame, I'm assuming you are referring to Hyundai? I would be willing to bet it took them at least 2 years to develop that transmission and based on what I have read it could have used some more development time since it is extremely slow to shift. What good does it do to rush something to market if it performs poorly? They will fix it over the next year or two, but why would you buy that vehicle now with a transmission that takes forever to shift?

Grimlock, I'm sure they will lose some sales of the SRT8 due to it not having an upgraded transmission. How many is hard to say. But you hit the nail on the head. There is no competition from Ford or Chevy right now against the SRT8 300C or Charger. So why wouldn't you go ahead and bring the car out? It is still a tremendous performance value for a full sized sport sedan when compared to cars such as the CTS-V, BMW M5, etc... I have yet to see a review where somebody complained about the power level of the new 6.4. Not saying there isn't one out there, but I haven't seen it. If Dodge had put 500hp in the 6.4 (which it is probably putting out anyway) some people would want 550. If they put 550, some would want 575. You can't make everybody happy.

As for Chevrolet bringing out a GXP replacement, I'll believe it when I see it. I realize they have said they are going to re-badge a Holden vehicle and sell it as a Chevy SS but we will have to see. Speaking of the G8 GXP, for all the praise that vehicle received, do you realize how many of those I have seen on the road? 1. That's it.

Grimlock
07-09-2011, 08:07 PM
Grimlock, I'm sure they will lose some sales of the SRT8 due to it not having an upgraded transmission. How many is hard to say. But you hit the nail on the head. There is no competition from Ford or Chevy right now against the SRT8 300C or Charger. So why wouldn't you go ahead and bring the car out? It is still a tremendous performance value for a full sized sport sedan when compared to cars such as the CTS-V, BMW M5, etc... I have yet to see a review where somebody complained about the power level of the new 6.4. Not saying there isn't one out there, but I haven't seen it. If Dodge had put 500hp in the 6.4 (which it is probably putting out anyway) some people would want 550. If they put 550, some would want 575. You can't make everybody happy.

As for Chevrolet bringing out a GXP replacement, I'll believe it when I see it. I realize they have said they are going to re-badge a Holden vehicle and sell it as a Chevy SS but we will have to see. Speaking of the G8 GXP, for all the praise that vehicle received, do you realize how many of those I have seen on the road? 1. That's it.

I think if power was in the 550 range, people would be happy. Right around GT500 and CTS-V power. I wouldn't mind a $5K price increase from the 2010 either. Price it at $49,XXX like the GT500 and you have a winner!

You are right the GXP sold poorly, but with them badging it as a Chevy I suspect it will do better. Look at how well the Camaro is selling! I believe they already developed a version as a Police cruiser, so I assume it will be pretty easy for them to bring to market. I think they are just waiting for the next Holden update. Bring it back as the Impala SS or even as the Chevelle and I suspect the Chevy guys will go nuts.

AFPVet
07-09-2011, 08:13 PM
I personally think that there would be too much shifting with the 8 speeds. On the other hand, it would be advantageous for roll racing since it increases your chances of having the right gear.

thethrill
07-09-2011, 08:14 PM
Now bringing back a Chevelle would be cool!

Grimlock
07-09-2011, 08:23 PM
I personally think that there would be too much shifting with the 8 speeds. On the other hand, it would be advantageous for roll racing since it increases your chances of having the right gear.

Just make it a twin-clutch and that becomes a non-issue.

MCaesar
07-10-2011, 09:34 AM
I think if power was in the 550 range, people would be happy. Right around GT500 and CTS-V power. I wouldn't mind a $5K price increase from the 2010 either. Price it at $49,XXX like the GT500 and you have a winner!

You are right the GXP sold poorly, but with them badging it as a Chevy I suspect it will do better. Look at how well the Camaro is selling! I believe they already developed a version as a Police cruiser, so I assume it will be pretty easy for them to bring to market. I think they are just waiting for the next Holden update. Bring it back as the Impala SS or even as the Chevelle and I suspect the Chevy guys will go nuts.

Bottom line for me is

* The Charger is still a good buy because of the size, power, and RWD
* AS mentioned above, the SRT doesn't provide good value versus the competition, particularly the Challenger. Like Grimlock I would gladly pay $5,000 more to be more competitive in power.

OR

They could keep it the way it is and reduce the price

Grimlock
07-10-2011, 02:12 PM
Bottom line for me is

* The Charger is still a good buy because of the size, power, and RWD
* AS mentioned above, the SRT doesn't provide good value versus the competition, particularly the Challenger. Like Grimlock I would gladly pay $5,000 more to be more competitive in power.

OR

They could keep it the way it is and reduce the price

Agreed. :bigthumb: