5.7 valve type sound after low oil [Archive] - Dodge Charger Forums

: 5.7 valve type sound after low oil


Big Jay
02-14-2011, 10:38 PM
My wifes 06 Daytona had about 83000 on the clock. she told me she could hear a sound like a lifter, and asked me to check the oil. I have been putting Mobile one in it.

I checked it and could not get a reading on the dipstick. I went and got four quarts of oil. It took all four to bring it up to the full mark. The hemi holds 7 quarts, so it had been running with three. She swears that the oil pressure light never came on.

This car doesn't leak a drop and no exhaust smoke. The only way four quarts got out of there was it was never put in on the last oil change.

We drove it about 2000 and check it. Right at full. It is not loosing oil.

However the original lifter sound was still there. I can not hear it, but she can.

She says the only time she hears it is when it is going from four to eight cylinders, themn when going back to four.

I had the oil changed several weeks ago, saw the oil level myself this time. Car still not loosing any oil, but the noise is there.

I know the 5.7 has roller rockerarms, do they also have roller tappets?

What takes place when the MDS or whatever it is called, goes from eight cylinders to four, and then back again? What part of that gould be causing this sound.

It in no way affects the performance. The car "hauls the mail" just like it always did.

Thanks

Jay

Gabe
02-15-2011, 02:32 AM
Well, here's a pic of our lifters ... the ones with the hole in them are the MDS lifters ... oil pressure commands the MDS operation ...

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57659&stc=1&d=1297758618


There are 4 solenoids that activate the MDS on/off function :

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=57660&stc=1&d=1297758626

370 HEMI
02-15-2011, 06:15 AM
My wifes 06 Daytona had about 83000 on the clock. she told me she could hear a sound like a lifter, and asked me to check the oil. I have been putting Mobile one in it.

I checked it and could not get a reading on the dipstick. I went and got four quarts of oil. It took all four to bring it up to the full mark. The hemi holds 7 quarts, so it had been running with three. She swears that the oil pressure light never came on.

This car doesn't leak a drop and no exhaust smoke. The only way four quarts got out of there was it was never put in on the last oil change.

We drove it about 2000 and check it. Right at full. It is not loosing oil.

However the original lifter sound was still there. I can not hear it, but she can.

She says the only time she hears it is when it is going from four to eight cylinders, themn when going back to four.

I had the oil changed several weeks ago, saw the oil level myself this time. Car still not loosing any oil, but the noise is there.

I know the 5.7 has roller rockerarms, do they also have roller tappets?

What takes place when the MDS or whatever it is called, goes from eight cylinders to four, and then back again? What part of that gould be causing this sound.

It in no way affects the performance. The car "hauls the mail" just like it always did.

Thanks

Jay

Jay,

You have roller cam followers and stamped steel rockers....no roller rockers. If the oil was down that low and you are using Mobil 1, you could have flat spotted some of the lifters. This is where the roller slides on the surface instead of rolling. Larger molecule oils are going to be needed to get the rollers to roll better. You need frictional properties in your oils to accomplish this!;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

Gabe
02-15-2011, 09:22 AM
Jay,

You have roller cam followers and stamped steel rockers....no roller rockers. If the oil was down that low and you are using Mobil 1, you could have flat spotted some of the lifters. This is where the roller slides on the surface instead of rolling. Larger molecule oils are going to be needed to get the rollers to roll better. You need frictional properties in your oils to accomplish this!;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

Brian, do you know anybody that can help him with that ?





:D



.

Big Jay
02-15-2011, 11:51 PM
Brian;

I will be calling you.

Jay

370 HEMI
02-16-2011, 06:12 AM
Brian, do you know anybody that can help him with that ?





:D



.

As a matter of fact......I do! LOL

Brian

370 HEMI
02-16-2011, 06:13 AM
Brian;

I will be calling you.

Jay

Look forward to working with you!;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

Tom, F&L GoR
02-16-2011, 07:46 PM
Jay,

You have roller cam followers and stamped steel rockers....no roller rockers. If the oil was down that low and you are using Mobil 1, you could have flat spotted some of the lifters. This is where the roller slides on the surface instead of rolling. Larger molecule oils are going to be needed to get the rollers to roll better. You need frictional properties in your oils to accomplish this!;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

This seems backwards. Oil at the cam lobes/lifter roller isn't under pressure, only splash. There isn't anything to capture the oil (like between a bearing shell and journal) to create pressure. Low oil levels would cause harm to systems under pressure, since the system would lose pressure. Systems lubricated by "splash" would be less harmed.

The roller only rolls if there is friction. Without friction, it would slide. By saying larger molecules will help the roller to roll, it implies the larger molecules have more friction. Seems backwards from what you want an oil to do.

Why do you say that "if you were using Mobil 1..." Is there something about this oil that is underperforming? It is a factory fill oil for many performance cars.

If there is a flat spot on the roller, that noise would be evident at any speed or load. The lifter doesn't "know" load, since it opens and closes the valve regardless.

sector 2
02-16-2011, 07:50 PM
This seems backwards. Oil at the cam lobes/lifter roller isn't under pressure, only splash. There isn't anything to capture the oil (like between a bearing shell and journal) to create pressure. Low oil levels would cause harm to systems under pressure, since the system would lose pressure. Systems lubricated by "splash" would be less harmed.

The roller only rolls if there is friction. Without friction, it would slide. By saying larger molecules will help the roller to roll, it implies the larger molecules have more friction. Seems backwards from what you want an oil to do.

Why do you say that "if you were using Mobil 1..." Is there something about this oil that is underperforming? It is a factory fill oil for many performance cars.

If there is a flat spot on the roller, that noise would be evident at any speed or load. The lifter doesn't "know" load, since it opens and closes the valve regardless.

Hey, Buddy, give it a rest already...'nuff.

CTown R/T R&T
02-16-2011, 07:54 PM
Uh oh, here we go again?

Big Jay
03-10-2011, 11:41 PM
Well I bit the bullet and bought some of Brians oil and filter. Will get it in next week and report back if the noise is still there.

un4givun2
03-11-2011, 06:08 AM
This seems backwards. Oil at the cam lobes/lifter roller isn't under pressure, only splash. There isn't anything to capture the oil (like between a bearing shell and journal) to create pressure. Low oil levels would cause harm to systems under pressure, since the system would lose pressure. Systems lubricated by "splash" would be less harmed.

The roller only rolls if there is friction. Without friction, it would slide. By saying larger molecules will help the roller to roll, it implies the larger molecules have more friction. Seems backwards from what you want an oil to do.

Why do you say that "if you were using Mobil 1..." Is there something about this oil that is underperforming? It is a factory fill oil for many performance cars.

If there is a flat spot on the roller, that noise would be evident at any speed or load. The lifter doesn't "know" load, since it opens and closes the valve regardless.

It seams that most of the "Hemi Tick" comes from cars with MDS. That makes since with what Brian was saying. I've never taken an MDS apart to see how it unloads the valves. I'm assuming that it unloads the valve through an oil relief built into the lifter. That oil relief is turned on/off by an electric valve.

The question I have is how do the roller lifters stay in contact with the lobes of the cam if the lifter is unloaded by the MDS? Typically, the valve springs holds the lifters tight against the cam. If the tappet has unloaded itself internally through it's oil releif, how does it stay tight against the cam?

Jonny
03-11-2011, 09:28 AM
Non MDS Hemi vehicles also exhibit the "Hemi tick".

un4givun2
03-11-2011, 05:26 PM
Non MDS Hemi vehicles also exhibit the "Hemi tick".

With all the problems mine has had, it has never ticked. Knock On Wood


If mine ever does tick I will stop driving it and tear down the top end. The biggest fear I have is the valve seat dropping out. I doubt seriously if the valve seat just drops out suddenly. I would bet that it works out gradually. If that is the case, then you will hear a tick. As the valve seat slowly works itself out of the head the valve stem will get further and further away from the rocker arm and will cause a very loud tick as the valve lash grows larger.

Big Jay
04-18-2011, 01:37 AM
Got around to putting Brians oil and filter in the car last week. I will keep everyone posted about the sound in the motor. If it goes away, that would be a cheap fix at $129.00

Big Jay
05-13-2011, 12:57 AM
About 3000 miles on this oil and the same tick is still there.

06supercharger
05-13-2011, 07:06 AM
I have a non MDS hemi, and i have the tic only at startup. The oil level is good, only use mobil 1. Been like this for 20k, so I dont sweat it. If it gets worse I'll have it checked out.

Gabe
05-13-2011, 08:01 AM
I have a non MDS hemi, and i have the tic only at startup. The oil level is good, only use mobil 1. Been like this for 20k, so I dont sweat it. If it gets worse I'll have it checked out.

All the Charger 5.7's have MDS ..... unless you've had the lifters replaced with 6.1 or 5.7 non-MDS lifters like I did when I had the heads/cam installed

Jonny
05-13-2011, 08:02 AM
About 3000 miles on this oil and the same tick is still there.

OMG! What a surprise. :rolleyes2:

Different oil will not repair damage, only mask it.

I appreciate that you posted back with your results...

Most people would just not say anything.

Quick
05-13-2011, 11:11 AM
You need frictional properties in your oils to accomplish this!;)

What is frictional properties?

Jonny
05-13-2011, 11:16 AM
What is frictional properties?

Obviously something Mobil 1 does not have.... :beerchug:

Fictional... frictional.

It has friction reduction properties.

Quick
05-13-2011, 04:25 PM
Obviously something Mobil 1 does not have.... :beerchug:

Fictional... frictional.

It has friction reduction properties.

I'm still thinking through the idea that he flat spotted his roller.

I think the speculation was that you need friction to make the roller roll. No friction and the roller stays stationary. but if there is no friction, how did it get flat? even if it wasn't rolling.

And then I'm thinking that if you used oil with frictional properties wouldn't the frictional properties also effect the bearings inside the roller to keep it from rolling?

Jonny
05-13-2011, 04:48 PM
I'm still thinking through the idea that he flat spotted his roller.

I think the speculation was that you need friction to make the roller roll. No friction and the roller stays stationary. but if there is no friction, how did it get flat? even if it wasn't rolling.

And then I'm thinking that if you used oil with frictional properties wouldn't the frictional properties also effect the bearings inside the roller to keep it from rolling?

There is no speculation that the rollers need friction to roll. It's physics. An object in motion.... blah blah blah...

I think QB is the oil for you. It's the magic elixir. The problem solver.

Anything.... ANYTHING is going to have frictional properties. Water, rock, paper.... scissors.


Uh, since you asked... frictional properties: The way in which two bodies in contact react when moved in different directions from one another.

un4givun2
05-13-2011, 06:07 PM
I see this a lot in race car engines that run solid roller cams. The lash settings on a solid roller cam cause the roller on the lifter to unload slightly at zero lift. This causes the roller to loose traction momentarily and slip/slide across the cam lobe and it flat spots the roller over time. This problem is magnified when running heavy weight racing oils like 50W. The oil is so thick that there isn't enough pressure on the lifter roller to force it through the oil. The roller weighs too much for the oil to make it turn so it just slides across the cam lobe.............bla, bla, bla......You get the picture.

Long story short, hydraulic lifters are less prone to this because they have more preload at zero lift than a solid lifter. That brings us to the MDS system. When it unloads the valves does it also unload the lifter? How does the MDS valve keep the pressure on the lifter that has been unloaded equal to the pressure on those still opening and closing valves? I don't think this MDS valve is that complex. I would bet that all the flat spotted lifters are on the cylinders/valves with the MDS.

370 HEMI
05-13-2011, 08:11 PM
What is frictional properties?

What I should have clarified is increased frictional properties in the lubricant that cause the rollers to roll and not slide. It is really more about the molecule size and structure that allows less wear but increases the propensity to roll under pressure.

Unforgiven said it correctly, it is less of a reality on a roller cam compared to a solid lifter cam. Solid lifters need much different compounds......high phosphorous and ZDDP to keep them from wearing.

I did talk to Jay today after he posted the 3000 mile comment and still ticking. We got him off some ACES IV to add to the fuel. It may be a combustion chamber noise.

And no, you can't fix a hardware problem with software. We were never trying to do that in the first place. When you have encountered wear in an engine or component, adjusted lubricants can save/stop continued destruction and that is what we were after here.

If the combination of the two technologies helps or quiets the noise, there will be a reduction in the acceleration to failure and an extention of usability.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

Quick
05-13-2011, 10:57 PM
What I should have clarified is increased frictional properties in the lubricant that cause the rollers to roll and not slide.

When you say "increased frictional properties" do you mean "more friction"?

How does more friction cause the rollers to roll? Isn't it the same oil that is lubricating the rollers themselves? Wouldn't the friction inside the rollers increase with the friction of the outside contact patch?

It is really more about the molecule size and structure that allows less wear but increases the propensity to roll under pressure.

Basically, isn't molecule size == viscosity?

06supercharger
05-14-2011, 06:58 AM
All the Charger 5.7's have MDS ..... unless you've had the lifters replaced with 6.1 or 5.7 non-MDS lifters like I did when I had the heads/cam installed


Wow. just read up on it. I do. For some reason I thought the MDS came out after 06. I'm a dumbass ........ Again. Well, my tick still stops after some driving, so I still don't sweat it.

King Savage
05-14-2011, 10:33 AM
<snip> I did talk to Jay today after he posted the 3000 mile comment and still ticking. We got him off some ACES IV to add to the fuel. It may be a combustion chamber noise.

I removed my cats and added Zoomers. That helped my combustion chamber noise




<snip>If the combination of the two technologies helps or quiets the noise, there will be a reduction in the acceleration to failure and an extention of usability.;)


Lol. What?

QuickieG
05-15-2011, 07:16 AM
I love it everytime someone mentions OIL
The fix is to spend alot of money on better oil

370 HEMI
05-15-2011, 12:32 PM
I love it everytime someone mentions OIL
The fix is to spend alot of money on better oil

I love it ..........every time we talk about performance, we talk about more expensive mods like heads, cams, exhausts and tuners for better performance.....REALLY!

Brian

Jonny
05-15-2011, 07:10 PM
I love it ..........every time we talk about performance, we talk about more expensive mods like heads, cams, exhausts and tuners for better performance.....REALLY!

Brian

Yes, but when someone mentions their car has developed a problem such as a CEL, the answer doesn't always seem to be "Get a predator, it will fix that problem. You see, the car needs to be retuned, because the engineers just do it as cheap as possible.... they don't care about your car or you."

Unlike oil threads.


Maybe that should be our standard answer to people with problems. "Buy a Predator"

370 HEMI
05-15-2011, 07:43 PM
Yes, but when someone mentions their car has developed a problem such as a CEL, the answer doesn't always seem to be "Get a predator, it will fix that problem. You see, the car needs to be retuned, because the engineers just do it as cheap as possible.... they don't care about your car or you."

Unlike oil threads.


Maybe that should be our standard answer to people with problems. "Buy a Predator"

Here is the issue Jonny,

Many problems that our cars have come from the oils and fuels that are offered on the market. The unfortunate thing is that many times, we get phone calls like:

Hey, my car is making this noise or that noise, or differential is whining or growling very loudly, can your products fix it.....NO.

However, with smaller noises that are lubricant related.....in most cases.....but not all..... can be solved by a custom blend that we make and ACES IV can help stop the problems in their tracks. If they are damaged by many 10's of thousands of miles significantly, then no, it isn't mechanic in a bottle......and we never claim it to be.

Prevention or early detection and application can stop many problems before they become big ones....thats all.:)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

Jonny
05-15-2011, 07:48 PM
Jay,

You have roller cam followers and stamped steel rockers....no roller rockers. If the oil was down that low and you are using Mobil 1, you could have flat spotted some of the lifters. This is where the roller slides on the surface instead of rolling. Larger molecule oils are going to be needed to get the rollers to roll better. You need frictional properties in your oils to accomplish this!;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com (http://www.bndautomotive.com)

Uh huh. :rolleyes2:

370 HEMI
05-15-2011, 08:08 PM
Uh huh. :rolleyes2:

This is an educated guess based upon what I have seen in these engines. Jay said that he can't hear it, but his wife can. We tried with the oils to address the possible problem and now are looking at ACES IV. They have a trip coming up that will give time for the two technologies to work together.

Jay will let us know how it turned out. Prolonging the life of the engine in the 80k + range is not a bad thing. We will find out from him directly.;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

khigerd
05-21-2011, 11:07 AM
Long story short, hydraulic lifters are less prone to this because they have more preload at zero lift than a solid lifter. That brings us to the MDS system. When it unloads the valves does it also unload the lifter? How does the MDS valve keep the pressure on the lifter that has been unloaded equal to the pressure on those still opening and closing valves? I don't think this MDS valve is that complex. I would bet that all the flat spotted lifters are on the cylinders/valves with the MDS.

When an MDS lifter is operating the value, oil is trapped inside the lifter causing it to act as a solid lifter and opening the value. When the MDS activates, that oil is allowed to vent from inside the lifter. This allows the plunger in the lifter to compress into the body and not open the value. An internal spring pushes the plunger back out as the cam lobe move out from under the lifter. The internal spring is what keeps the lifter seated to the cam. For that matter, all hydraulic lifters are kept seated to the cam with an internal spring and/or oil pressure after the lobe moves away.

Big Jay
05-23-2011, 12:20 AM
The fuel additive arrived and is now in the tank.

Jay