Dyno Tuning And Mods

[Lanmon28]

Okay...I'm pretty new to the whole Dodge scene because as I stated before I've had mustangs for years and the one good thing about having mustangs is the abundance of mods and tuning capabilites out there to let you know exactly what you've got under the hood and how well the combo will perform. BUT, from everything I'm hearing here...seems that Dodge and it's affiliates are just making the whole tuning process next to impossible, right? I mean...I'd love to stick the viper V10 in the srt8 Charger and be done with it but unfortunately there are clearance issues...so it sounds like we're pretty much limited to the power the cars come with. So, keeping this in mind I have a few questions about something. For example, GS motorsports already has a supercharger kit for 6.1 hemi's... so how exactly have they tuned this thing to work with the car? And if you can't really adjust the computer then the car's must run just terrible with this kit. And basically we just stick this kit on the car and just HOPE that it doesn't blow it up? Surely they have to be doing SOME kind of tuning, right? Otherwise the car would just spit and sputter and run awful once you put the supercharger on it. How are some of you 5.7 guys adding these mods to you car without tuning it? Does the car run bad? I mean...while I do THINK 425 horses is nice, I am a speed junkie and WOULD need to be able to modify this car further...I'm used to 500 RW horsepower Mustangs and would never be able to settle for 400 RW. I need you guys to give me some pointers on how these mods are somewhat reliable because if I don't think they are and ARE going to last then, as much as I'd LOVE to have a Charger SRT8, I'll just have to go with a Shleby Cobra. I know those will get the speed. Help me out here guys!!! :)

[chargershed]

The lx car's computer is just more sophisticated than the one in the mustang, it "learns" how you drive and adjusts shift points and the like according to how you drive. The Mustang has "hard" tune points, which is easier to "tune" because you can adjust fuel mixture and timing and shift points to one program ( a one size fits all program if you will). since the chrysler computer has static settings( for the etc and stability programs) it adjusts on the fly based on inputs from a bunch of sensors, so it is harder to "tune", you also have the MDS system to deal with...but, like a mustang, you could put a 4-5 psi blower in one with no real tuning needed...Crane is making cams for the hemi that add 80-100 horses, there are long tube headers( for the 5.7) that you can put on that won't turn on a check engine light ( about 25-30 h.p. at the wheels, so with a combination of bolt on parts, you could get 500 rwhp...the only question then is weather or not the trans can take the abuse...

[Lanmon28]

Well, that's some pretty helpful information. I know in the SRT8 the cams, heads and exhaust system are upgraded anyway so I'm not sure how much horsepower that would give you with changing out the cams and the exhaust. I think the tranmission might actually hold up pretty well to this kind of power. It's probably why they're making all of the automatics at this point...transmissions just seem to hold but better when there's no clutch involved. I'm kind of in a dilemma here because I'd like to be one of the first to own a srt8 but at the same time I'd like to see other peoples mods on them to see how well they hold up before I buy one. I guess I'll just kind of take it easy for now because the new Shelby isn't due out til next year anyway so i guess for now I'll just keep the 01 GT I have and get the most of out it til then. Before I got the CHARGER bug I was about to invest in a methanol kit in my current GT that should take it up to about 600 horses. Guess I'll just stay on THAT track and monitor the SRT's when they come out. I'll end up with one eventually, more than likey...the question is just When. Thanks for the info. :)

[HEMIRT]

The lx car's computer is just more sophisticated than the one in the mustang, it "learns" how you drive and adjusts shift points and the like according to how you drive. The Mustang has "hard" tune points, which is easier to "tune" because you can adjust fuel mixture and timing and shift points to one program ( a one size fits all program if you will). since the chrysler computer has static settings( for the etc and stability programs) it adjusts on the fly based on inputs from a bunch of sensors, so it is harder to "tune", you also have the MDS system to deal with...but, like a mustang, you could put a 4-5 psi blower in one with no real tuning needed...Crane is making cams for the hemi that add 80-100 horses, there are long tube headers( for the 5.7) that you can put on that won't turn on a check engine light ( about 25-30 h.p. at the wheels, so with a combination of bolt on parts, you could get 500 rwhp...the only question then is weather or not the trans can take the abuse...


the 05 mustang is an adaptable computer, drive by wire and all that jazz, the lx platform engine controls are not as advanced as the new "spanish oak" ECM that the ford is packing, you couldnt even put a CAI on the 05 without tuning, and i dont believe 80-100 hp until i see a dyno, and not one by the manu., according to SCT and Diablo, there just isnt as big of a market rush for tuning on a family car as there was for the 05 mustang,

[maneval69]

the 05 mustang is an adaptable computer, drive by wire and all that jazz, the lx platform engine controls are not as advanced as the new "spanish oak" ECM that the ford is packing, you couldnt even put a CAI on the 05 without tuning, and i dont believe 80-100 hp until i see a dyno, and not one by the manu., according to SCT and Diablo, there just isnt as big of a market rush for tuning on a family car as there was for the 05 mustang,

I am ignorant when it comes to the inner workings of the Mustang.
In what way is it so advanced.
I thought it was a mass air flow system and you still need a tuner to mod it.
Please clarify.
Thanks

PS
I also don't believe a 100hp at the wheel with cam and headers. (with out tuning)

[maneval69]

Oh yea,
Com Cams notes that there dyno test included exhaust upgrades.

[HEMIRT]

i dont think you can modify a late model car and get the most out of the modifications without engine tuning, the mustang went lean with just a CAI, not just a lil lean, but 16:1 lean


how does the LX platform measure incoming air? etc

[GLHS837]

My belief is that the reason a CAI needs to be tuned on the stang is that it's MAF system, and any changes that take airflow out the allowed range causes problems.

[HEMIRT]

mass air systems are far more accomadating of modifications than speed density setups, the problem is not the mass air, its the computer fighting the modifications, the torque mgmt hasnt been totally elim from the mustangs software yet, the car i had would go into failsafe anytime it broke 400ftlbs and i would have to reflash the ECM, (it was procharged)

[Thunderkiss]

the 05 mustang is an adaptable computer, drive by wire and all that jazz, the lx platform engine controls are not as advanced as the new "spanish oak" ECM that the ford is packing, you couldnt even put a CAI on the 05 without tuning, and i dont believe 80-100 hp until i see a dyno, and not one by the manu., according to SCT and Diablo, there just isnt as big of a market rush for tuning on a family car as there was for the 05 mustang,

You are probably right about the Musty having more demand, but I think the point should be made that most people buying the 300, Mag or Charger w/ the Hemi are buying them for the perfrmance as well as the size. Family guys who ain't ready to get old yet. :)

When I see one of the three with the Hemi they are usually tearing a$$ past someone, or WOT off the light. :happy:

I think there is a huge demand (We just have to let them know) and the company that produces a tuner first is gonna clean up :wink:

[HEMIRT]

You are probably right about the Musty having more demand, but I think the point should be made that most people buying the 300, Mag or Charger w/ the Hemi are buying them for the perfrmance as well as the size. Family guys who ain't ready to get old yet. :)

When I see one of the three with the Hemi they are usually tearing a$$ past someone, or WOT off the light. :happy:

I think there is a huge demand (We just have to let them know) and the company that produces a tuner first is gonna clean up :wink:


i agree with everything but hte WOT off the light, the car wont let me do it lol

[maneval69]

i dont think you can modify a late model car and get the most out of the modifications without engine tuning, the mustang went lean with just a CAI, not just a lil lean, but 16:1 lean


how does the LX platform measure incoming air? etc

The LX does not measure incoming air.
It uses a speed density system. It calculates the amount of fuel required by measuring the manifold pressure (vacuum), the throttle position, engine rpm, and intake air temp. It plots those readings on a fuel map and that’s who it determines how long to pulse the injectors.

so basically to tune it we need to find out how to produce a fuel map that fits our needs and then figure out how to replace the stock one.

[HEMIRT]

The LX does not measure incoming air.
It uses a speed density system. It calculates the amount of fuel required by measuring the manifold pressure (vacuum), the throttle position, engine rpm, and intake air temp. It plots those readings on a fuel map and that’s who it determines how long to pulse the injectors.



even more reason to have a tuner then, IMHO.

[maneval69]

The Hemi trucks use the same Speed Density system and Hypertec has a programmer for them now.
But
I believe MDS and the stability control add another level of difficulty to developing a programmer for the LXs. The PCM architecture could be different as well.

[Thunderkiss]

i agree with everything but hte WOT off the light, the car wont let me do it lol

I don't know if it's the fact that from day one I've torn a$$ off every light, or I've just learned how she responds best but my car gets off a light hard.

You can't just drop it, but if you experiment a lil, it will move!

I know the wife is ready now; after all those reverse headbutts to the headrest :whistle:

[HEMIRT]

The Hemi trucks use the same Speed Density system and Hypertec has a programmer for them now.
But
I believe MDS and the stability control add another level of difficulty to developing a programmer for the LXs. The PCM architecture could be different as well.


its really not any harder to decode than any other car, but the companies are limited to development staff etc etc, and want to bring to market the products for the vehicles that they think they will sell the most of their product for, its just good business for them, unfortunately we have to wait, thats why i suggested that everyone on the forum call or email them daily, and get the ball rolling


i would love to yank the stab control, and put a LSD in the rear axle but i dont think thats going to happen, its a great car, but not very modification friendly.

[maneval69]

As far as the demand for a programmer, there are about 265 thousand LX cars on the road.
I don't have a clue as to how many there needs to be before a programmer would be profitable.

[GLHS837]

I'm pretty sure it's the PCM (powertrain control module) itself thats the showstopper. Trucks usually lagging behind, tech-wise, they might not have the latest gen. Which was the NGC (next generation controller). But these vehicles use the CANBUS system, and I'm not even sure what they are using.

[Thunderkiss]

I'm pretty sure it's the PCM (powertrain control module) itself thats the showstopper. Trucks usually lagging behind, tech-wise, they might not have the latest gen. Which was the NGC (next generation controller). But these vehicles use the CANBUS system, and I'm not even sure what they are using.

This is great stuff guys, I'm learnin a lot. :rockon:

Keep it up!!!!

[GotACharger]

This is great stuff guys, I'm learnin a lot. :rockon:

Keep it up!!!!


Me too...... This chip when it becomes avaliable will someone just be able to find and install in the PCM or is this a a job for a pro? And if it is for a pro how much for installation?

[Lanmon28]

Well, I tend to agree that the people who like the 300's, Magnums and Chargers are probably a high group. There's the fact that it does tend to appeal to a bigger demographic because now we've got nice looking, sporty cars that can make a comfortable run to the grocery store if need be. Wives will allow husbands to have these cars since they're practical as well as fun to drive. So, I think the demand is definitely there and the word needs to get out about it. I think it will...it just may take time...unfortunately I'm impatient. I want a nice looking and EXTREMELY fast car now... I don't wanna wait that long. I think there is another reason by which I judge the future popularity of these SRT's. Me. I have been a mustang guy for the longest time and have thought of nothing else...I love the speed out of them and the way they look and have been pretty devoted to them. So, if the Charger can turn my head, there's GOT to be something to it. Because I'm die hard mustang. I've actually heard a LOT of people in the mustang circles I run around in talking about buying one of the new chargers. And these are also pretty die hard mustang fans. I do think the demand is there. I actually had my mustang completely rebuilt recently at JMS Chip corp (Johnson Motorsport). For those of you that aren't familiar with them, they are owned by Chris Johnson who is one of the founders of the SCT technology. So, I'm going to talk to them and see what kind of hype they've been hearing about the Hemi's and if they actually might be considering doing something for them. Maybe i can help convice them since they know what a die hard mustang fan I am...so if I'M interested in the Chargers and the Hemi's, they know there's something to it. :)

[HEMIRT]

its not really the number of cars on the road, but the number of cars on the road with drivers that want to modify


i see a tuner coming to market, but not before year end

[Lanmon28]

Well, I just sent an email to my friend Monty at JMS chip corp (SCT). Telling him about our problems and trying to get some insight into what they may be trying to develop at this point. They won't be back in the shop til monday so I'll post his reply on here when I hear something. Never fear, guys...we'll get there. The hemi is going to be the king of the road soon...and that's hard for a die hard mustang fan to say. Apparently NOT so die hard, anymore. :)

[GotACharger]

Well, I just sent an email to my friend Monty at JMS chip corp (SCT). Telling him about our problems and trying to get some insight into what they may be trying to develop at this point. They won't be back in the shop til monday so I'll post his reply on here when I hear something. Never fear, guys...we'll get there. The hemi is going to be the king of the road soon...and that's hard for a die hard mustang fan to say. Apparently NOT so die hard, anymore. :)

If you can find a better car BUY IT!!! LOL.... Once you drive a GO CAR it's a MOPAR or NO CAR. :happy: Glad ya made the switch beem a Mopar fan fo 30 years.

[maneval69]

I'm pretty sure it's the PCM (powertrain control module) itself thats the showstopper. Trucks usually lagging behind, tech-wise, they might not have the latest gen. Which was the NGC (next generation controller). But these vehicles use the CANBUS system, and I'm not even sure what they are using.
I think your right the PCM is the problem.
Chrysler has been using a CANBUS system for years.
CANBUS is only a networking system (Control Area Network BUS) it is not a computer operating system. That is NOT to say the computers are the same as the trucks.
BUT
The trucks use a CANBUS system as well.
take a look at this thread (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=15412&highlight=canbus)