Hemi Tick cause discovered [Archive] - Dodge Charger Forums

: Hemi Tick cause discovered


SRT Service
05-06-2010, 08:11 AM
I have a 07 Plum Crazy Daytona Charger with 30k and the Hemi tick.

There has been lots of people with solutions but never a fix- super oils, fuel additives, valve replacement, injector nosie ideas, etc. I can tell you that none of these are the solution

I recently sat down with a Chrysler Technical Rep and asked the question- what is the problem and solution? He smiled really big and said that they had discovered the cause.

We looked at pictures together showing the cup that the 5.7L Hemi valve spring sits in. When engine valve move, it is too close and starts to wear.
The spring moves around and rubs on the inside of the spring cup.

They confirmed this by finding the noise can be alleviated temporarily by turning the cup spring 90 degrees, but will return in 15-20,000 miles after groove/wear pattern returns.

The 4.7L v-8ís have a non-metal cup and this do not have the noise. The 6.1L Hemi does not use the same design, and the new 5.7L V-8 has more clearance between cup and spring.

So for us current owners of 5.7L V-8 owners- learn to love the noise or change the cups every 30k-60K.

Dan

carchitect
05-06-2010, 08:23 AM
can anyone point these out on a set of head?

SRT Service
05-06-2010, 08:54 AM
can anyone point these out on a set of head?

here's a Star Parts item- if someone wants to post on page

cb1984
05-06-2010, 09:34 AM
Brian did a great write-up about the tick here:

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123111

From reading both, they sound pretty similiar. He didn't mention anything about turning the spring 90 degrees but I have to ask, if his oil has eliminated the tick for so many of us (the proof is right here on the forum), if turning the spring is only a temporary fix (15-20k miles) why not use a motor oil that will eliminate the tic?

SRT Service
05-06-2010, 09:54 AM
Brian did a great write-up about the tick here:

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123111

From reading both, they sound pretty similiar. He didn't mention anything about turning the spring 90 degrees but I have to ask, if his oil has eliminated the tick for so many of us (the proof is right here on the forum), if turning the spring is only a temporary fix (15-20k miles) why not use a motor oil that will eliminate the tic?

Read both posts again please. I just skimmed his previous post again, as I have in many of his on all sites. This is the mechanical problem with cups on springs from all info by Chrysler, as I posted in original writeup. The other items are basic engine issues that happen with all engines.

My purpose for reporting is accuracy and knowledge base for our fellow owners. There may be additional regular engine noises that different products may solve-ie piston noise, injector noise, etc. I know that I'm old school engine knowledge (not many people have done it, most only talk/understand theory because they have not had the opportunity to do complete overhauls), but there is no amount of additive to stop this contact wear.

Thanks,
:D
Dan

cb1984
05-06-2010, 10:57 AM
The thread title is "Hemi Tick cause discovered". I'm not trying to be an ass or anything but the "tick" is gone after using his engine oil so I have to say the reason has been known and his oil was my solution along with 1800 or so other Charger owners.

I don't know too much about the engines, not going to make things up, but I know his product eliminated it. I'm not calling it a "super oil" as you did, but a blend that eliminated the "tick".

arfur
05-06-2010, 12:56 PM
So the spring (and valve) does not rotate during normal operation..?

keviiinn
05-06-2010, 01:45 PM
for those that have the tick, does it cause any type of wear? or does only turning the spring 90 degrees cause wear?

SRT Service
05-06-2010, 02:18 PM
The thread title is "Hemi Tick cause discovered". I'm not trying to be an ass or anything but the "tick" is gone after using his engine oil so I have to say the reason has been known and his oil was my solution along with 1800 or so other Charger owners.

I don't know too much about the engines, not going to make things up, but I know his product eliminated it. I'm not calling it a "super oil" as you did, but a blend that eliminated the "tick".

No problem taken with the post- I'm not knocking anyone's product they are trying to sell. Again, I would suspect that there are other noises that have diminished after these types of products, but here's the mechanics of it as per Chrysler.

I do know a great deal about engines- or I got screwed with my education and have paid for nothing for the last 9 years of student loan payments:grin:, but this seems right when I viewed Chrysler's pictures and reviewed with him their results.

No offering a challenge here, but I guess I would be interested in the 1800people that you post- er?

Again- I AM NOT HERE TO DEBATE SOMEONE'S PRODUCT- this is what Chrysler is putting out as of two weeks ago's conversation. Thought this would be an "ah ha" "light bulb" type moment that may help some of us with peace of mind on the noise.

Whether or not this Vendor's product is usefull is not the purpose of the thread.

Thanks,

Dan

370 HEMI
05-06-2010, 02:25 PM
Read both posts again please. I just skimmed his previous post again, as I have in many of his on all sites. This is the mechanical problem with cups on springs from all info by Chrysler, as I posted in original writeup. The other items are basic engine issues that happen with all engines.

My purpose for reporting is accuracy and knowledge base for our fellow owners. There may be additional regular engine noises that different products may solve-ie piston noise, injector noise, etc. I know that I'm old school engine knowledge (not many people have done it, most only talk/understand theory because they have not had the opportunity to do complete overhauls), but there is no amount of additive to stop this contact wear.

Thanks,
:D
Dan

Dan,

With all due respect to you, what you do and to your Chrysler rep, the root problem that these engines face....by your own admission is wear! The noise is a consequence of metal to metal contact.

I appreciate that you have highlighted another part of the issue that is different than what we discussed earlier in other Hemi Tick posts and of course any knowledge gained in the pursuit of maintaining and protecting these cars is great.

We frankly are approaching the issue with plentiful lubricity that has great film strength both from what is blown up through the stem and guide area (ACES IV) by 3rd and 4th stroke combustion, but also with copious additive packages that minimize wearing in the upper rocker and stem area in our custom blended lubricants.

If we can greatly reduce to completely eliminate this need to turn the cup 90 degrees, it is a great thing to have in your engine.

Frankly there is no silver bullet approach to this issue, but there are designable and tribological ways to address this issue that many on this forum already have employed.

Thanks again for the update and your time!;)

Regards,
Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

SRT Service
05-06-2010, 02:25 PM
So the spring (and valve) does not rotate during normal operation..?

The mechanic in me says "i don't think so" if the guy is telling me that rotating the spring changes the wear pattern. I know for sure that the valves if all good and clean rotate slightly during use until aged/worn enough.

for those that have the tick, does it cause any type of wear? or does only turning the spring 90 degrees cause wear?

This is normal "wear" and would never likely result in a failure- just brushes against the cup during normal use. 90 degree will only allow for a different spot to wear against.

Thanks,

Dan

SRT Service
05-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Dan,

With all due respect to you, what you do and to your Chrysler rep, the root problem that these engines face.............
.
.
.
.
.
.Brian
BND Automotive LLC:driving:
440-821-9040
www.bndautomotive.com

eh, again, thanks- mechanically again please- the 90 degree turn is only part of them verifing their diagnosis- this will not FIX the problem.

I guess I'm gonna quit adding comments and just hope that this turns into a knowledge base for our fellow owners.

Good luck and see you on the road!

Dan

Part Deux
05-06-2010, 03:28 PM
There has been lots of people with solutions but never a fix- super oils, fuel additives, valve replacement, injector nosie ideas, etc. I can tell you that none of these are the solution

... they had discovered the cause.

We looked at pictures together showing the cup that the 5.7L Hemi valve spring sits in. When engine valve move, it is too close and starts to wear.

The spring moves around and rubs on the inside of the spring cup.

They confirmed this by finding the noise can be alleviated temporarily by turning the cup spring 90 degrees, but will return in 15-20,000 miles after groove/wear pattern returns.

eh, again, thanks- mechanically again please- the 90 degree turn is only part of them verifing their diagnosis- this will not FIX the problem.

Me thinks that if its a wear and sticking (probably cause of the tic) problem, that increased lubricity would go a long ways to being the solution to the problem.

Doesn't sound like rotating the cups or replacing them every 15-20k is a solution either, only covering up the problem.

So what is Chrysler going to do to fix the problem?

Midlife Crisis
05-06-2010, 03:38 PM
The 4.7L v-8ís have a non-metal cup and this do not have the noise. The 6.1L Hemi does not use the same design, and the new 5.7L V-8 has more clearance between cup and spring.

So for us current owners of 5.7L V-8 owners- learn to love the noise or change the cups every 30k-60K.

Dan

I appreciate your input Dan and I'm sure many others do also.
I wonder if the older Hemi's can be fit with the new 5.7's cup/spring?

4DEATER
05-06-2010, 03:39 PM
I think all he's saying is it's a poor design and they have pointed out the exact flaw. I understand that the oil will GREATLY reduce the wear but the issue is it should never rub like that to start with. I think that's all he was try to say was poor design and here is the part that is to blame.;)

hskr
05-06-2010, 04:27 PM
eh, again, thanks- mechanically again please- the 90 degree turn is only part of them verifing their diagnosis- this will not FIX the problem.

I guess I'm gonna quit adding comments and just hope that this turns into a knowledge base for our fellow owners.

Good luck and see you on the road!

Dan

He was more or less agreeing with you. Even you said it was considered "normal" wear by Chrysler, so if one could reduce or even eliminate the wear through the use of a good oil what's the problem?

black sails
05-06-2010, 06:16 PM
good info. put my mind at ease a little.

tims96se
05-06-2010, 06:33 PM
Looks like Chrysler should be recalling and fixing this noise issue...
That would cost them way to much money...

Hemi31
05-06-2010, 06:46 PM
The cup?You mean the spring seat or the spring steel damper that is around the spring? If it's the damper I gotta disagree as the 6.1 uses the damper as well and does not tick. The 5.7 ticks horribly and it's due to the lifter internals not the spring seat or damper.Wanna get rid of the tick permanently?Put in a set of non MDS lifters.

Willtransco
05-06-2010, 08:34 PM
The cup?You mean the spring seat or the spring steel damper that is around the spring? If it's the damper I gotta disagree as the 6.1 uses the damper as well and does not tick. The 5.7 ticks horribly and it's due to the lifter internals not the spring seat or damper.Wanna get rid of the tick permanently?Put in a set of non MDS lifters.

That makes perfect sense to me..As I did toss the mds and went with 6.1 PR's...noise was abated!!

Black Bullet
05-06-2010, 08:56 PM
That makes perfect sense to me..As I did toss the mds and went with 6.1 PR's...noise was abated!!


What are 6.1 PR's? And I'm guessing if you change lifters and PR's that is a lot of work....

NBChargerSXT
05-06-2010, 09:14 PM
What are 6.1 PR's? And I'm guessing if you change lifters and PR's that is a lot of work....

I'm guessing he means push rods. But its crazy late here and my brain just may be slipping.

ResumeSpeed
05-11-2010, 03:26 AM
So what is Chrysler going to do to fix the problem?
I think we are dealing with two different issues here - the Hemi "tick" and Hemi "squeak". The valve spring rotation "fix" is for a squeak/squeal sound (like belt noise). The noise is caused by the spring making contact with the inside diameter of the spring damper. For vehicles having the issue the noise should eventually go away and will cause no harm. The indexing solution involves rotating the springs 180 degrees. A redesigned valve spring (w/o the damper) is/was supposed to be implemented in 5.7L production this year. Not sure if that has been done yet, or if the new spring would fit earlier engines.