TONE RING and various other mysteries [Archive] - Dodge Charger Forums

: TONE RING and various other mysteries


ivmotor
03-26-2009, 10:04 AM
Here's the dealio. 06 charger with 5.7, novi 2000, front mount, borla, etc, puked a piston/rod combo. The block and crank were destroyed. I found a 6.1 block, 392 compstar crank/rod combo, and had ross build a big set of pistons. Engine is back in and won't run. I get a non-synch cam/crank sensor error on the live data. I replace both sensors and have run occ. patterns on both, they look perfect. I pulled the cam and crank sensors out and did a tooth count against another 5.7 we have here. It is 6 teeth off. I removed the front cover and recheck the cam timing...even to the point of a degree wheel. The cam timing is dead on.

The tone ring is mounted in the wrong place. So no biggie I just need the right tone ring so I call dodge and try to order one. There's only one design and it comes with a crankshaft. So I decide to redrill my tone ring for the correct position. I searched for pictures of hemi crankshafts and I discovered that the tone rings are all over the place. I have three pictures with different positions.

Anybody know where I need to mount this thing?

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 10:30 AM
Cam timing is as follows........dot on the cam gear in the 12 o'clock position in the middle of the single blue link on the chain,crank gear dot at the 6 o'clock position in the middle of the two blue links on the chain.
If you still get the cam/crank code after seting the cam timing up the right way you will need a starscan or star mobile to do a cam/crank relearn.

The crank tone ring only goes on one way.....so if your getting a code because of it you probably need a scan tool.

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 12:34 PM
Cam timing is as follows........dot on the cam gear in the 12 o'clock position in the middle of the single blue link on the chain,crank gear dot at the 6 o'clock position in the middle of the two blue links on the chain.
If you still get the cam/crank code after seting the cam timing up the right way you will need a starscan or star mobile to do a cam/crank relearn.

The crank tone ring only goes on one way.....so if your getting a code because of it you probably need a scan tool.


Its not cam timing. The tone ring has the wrong timing. I need somebody who knows where the flat tooth needs to be.

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 12:42 PM
Its not cam timing. The tone ring has the wrong timing. I need somebody who knows where the flat tooth needs to be.
see.....thats the part I said......you need to do a cam crank relearn with a star mobile or a star scan.The PCM will relearn the position of the crank ring.

Hemi_charger_RT
03-26-2009, 01:25 PM
secretevly hemi31 loves solving these mystries! listen to him, hes the man!

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 03:30 PM
Forgive me...the dealership here told me I had to fix the wheel first, they told me they had wheels drilled due to similar problems. GM relearn requires a running engine to set cam and crank synch...Dodge doesn't? I don't want to buy a STAR then find out the car has to runs first.

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 03:39 PM
Hmmm.....If the wheel is the same that came off the 5.7 that was running it should work now no?Or did you buy a new tone wheel?

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 04:56 PM
The crankshaft came with a wheel. The wheel on the old engine was battered, and I was foolish enough to not check the alignment before it went to the recycler. I have pictures of hemi crankshafts with various tone ring clockings. I need access to an 06 charger 5.7 crankshaft so I can get a point of reference.

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 05:02 PM
I just spent an hour in the manual and it says nothing of a specific tone ring position.At this point I would be looking at finding an engine builder as I would hate to see you put it in the car to find out if the relearn works on a non running car.I would say yes it does but I am not 100% sure.And I doubt you want to buy a Star tool at over $1k for this...I would see if anyone local to you has one.

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 05:05 PM
The crankshaft came with a wheel. The wheel on the old engine was battered, and I was foolish enough to not check the alignment before it went to the recycler. I have pictures of hemi crankshafts with various tone ring clockings. I need access to an 06 charger 5.7 crankshaft so I can get a point of reference.
BTW......just checking the obvious......but yu did check the sensors them selves to make sure they weren't trashed right?

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 05:12 PM
I replaced both and verified patterns against iatn's "known good" ones. They don't show overlayed patterns so I can't use theirs for reference.

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 05:16 PM
I have never seen that tone ring show up wrong and I have done a bunch.Your sure you have the timing right up front?The computer in these cars will teach itself the crank timing pretty quick.

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 05:27 PM
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu318/ivmotorsports/hemicrankshaft.jpg
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu318/ivmotorsports/hemi-crank.jpg
http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu318/ivmotorsports/DSCF1535.jpg

The last one is mine. If you look close the first two look nearly 180 off.

wickedchargerrt
03-26-2009, 05:34 PM
so your talking about the gear at the back of the crank, not the one up front in the chain set? Do you have access to an oscilliscope? I dont know the engine stuff like hemi 31 does but sensor wise
- the machining can be wrong on that tone ring and have the wrong gap in between it and the sensor
-the ckp could be screwed up
-or the relearn needs done as said but i've seen very few relearns need done

There is a possibility the crank is lined up correctly and the ckp is getting a signal bad because of that. I cant imagine theres that much room for endplay but i dont get into these cranks much. IF there is any room for movement or lash in the crank it could be spaced to far from the sensor to get a accurate reading. Are you getting any codes other than a cmp and ckp code?

Hemi31 will get it figured out

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 05:39 PM
The top crank in the pic and yours look identical.Does the car try to fire and die or just crank?

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 06:33 PM
It feels like the timing is 30-40 degrees off...it spits through the throttle body and generally makes noise like it wants to start, but doesn't. With a spark tester I get a bunch at first, but when the non-synch shows up on live data the spark goes away. I mocked up a timing light and the timing seems to follow the "degrees off synch" I wish I could load the recordings so you could watch them. Key on engine off it shows "in synch" as soon as I start cranking the ecm begins listing degrees off which seems to either be 22.7 or 44.3 then non-synch and no spark/no injector pulse. I can't crank for long because I'm using an accusump to make sure I have lots of oil pressure while I'm punishing this poor thing.

wickedchargerrt
03-26-2009, 06:47 PM
The pcm will kill the coils and injectors if it thinks its loading the cats with fuel . Its a epa thing. You have your gears lined up like 31 said? 12 oclock cam gear dot, 6 oclock crank gear dot and 2 oclock crank gear keyway?

Hemi31
03-26-2009, 06:58 PM
Uhm.....your timing gear is off.The position of the toner is correct.....I looked into it.

ivmotor
03-26-2009, 07:37 PM
I'm running a comp cam...it is verified according to degree wheel. It has 145psi cranking (4600' elevation). The front cover and oil pump are off, I removed the oil pump and redid the chain just for giggles.

Why in the pictures does one ring show to be 180 out? The other 5.7 I check here (very un-scientific) looks to be 6 teeth different from mine. I couldn't pull the pan, I just checked via tooth count through cam sensor and crank sensor holes.

Hemi31
03-27-2009, 06:21 AM
can't answer that........I seem to remember the flat on our cranks was just foe a reference though and it would learn it nop matter where it was.at this point I would find someone with a star tool and do a relearn.you would be surprised what the PCM is capable of.

Which Comp cam are you running?My 268 made 215psi cranking.

ivmotor
03-27-2009, 09:08 AM
can't answer that........I seem to remember the flat on our cranks was just foe a reference though and it would learn it nop matter where it was.at this point I would find someone with a star tool and do a relearn.you would be surprised what the PCM is capable of.

Which Comp cam are you running?My 268 made 215psi cranking.

I just went through the destructions for the STAR, engine needs to be capable of 3000rpm to do a relearn. I'm going to set the ring 180 and give it another shot.

I'm running the 273, but the number seems low due to altitude (air pressure is 11.9) and 9.6:1 (18-20psi boost).

Hemi31
03-27-2009, 09:13 AM
Is that the plug for the crank sensor hanging down in the pic?You just unplgged it for the picture right?

ivmotor
03-27-2009, 09:54 AM
Yeah, I unplugged to check sensor depth with the other ckp's I have here.

ivmotor
04-21-2009, 04:15 PM
Different tone rings.

http://i659.photobucket.com/albums/uu318/ivmotorsports/DSCF1564.jpg

Runs now!!!!!!!!

Hemi31
04-21-2009, 05:14 PM
One come out of a truck or wrong year?

ivmotor
04-21-2009, 07:25 PM
I have a truck one, it has the same count as the correct one but has three bolt holes to hold it on. The kind gentleman at compstar said the wrong wheel is the new style, 58 tooth just like GM so it has the same pattern. One wrong digit in the crankshaft part number...two months of rogaine treatments.